Surrounded
Has the FBI Always Been Corrupt? | 1 Ex-Mafia Boss vs 20 Cops Surrounded Follow-Up
15 Feb 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What influences public perception of the FBI?
In this day and age, all of us, no matter who you are, we're influenced by the information we take in. Take into account that very often the people alleging the so-called political motivation of the FBI are themselves hyper-partisan.
Now, if we want to talk what happened with ICE in Minnesota, what I can say is that in New Jersey, we're not supposed to shoot at moving vehicles unless we have no other avenue of escape, right?
Underneath the Constitution, underneath the Fourth Amendment, when we place somebody under arrest or we're holding onto them and they're in our custody, it's our job to make sure that they're okay, regardless of whether or not they're a good person or a bad person or they've made bad decisions. It's our responsibility.
All right, let's get into this. I'm here with Tom from Surrounded. Tom, welcome back into a less combative environment, but welcome back in the Jubilee universe. How are you doing?
I'm good. Thank you for having me.
What is your memory like from your exchange with Michael in Surrounded? That was probably one of the more contested exchanges of the session.
Yeah, it didn't start off that way. It started off friendly enough, but as it went on, I mean, he has strong viewpoints and And there were some things I felt inclined to push back on and it went from there.
Yeah. And for anyone listening to this, do you mind kind of elaborating on your experience in law enforcement? Because that was something that came across that I thought was really interesting is you have, you know, you worked with the FBI, but you've had relationships with police officers. So you really have like a broad amount of just touch points with law enforcement in America.
Do you mind covering that or breaking that down?
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Chapter 2: How does hyper-partisanship affect trust in law enforcement?
And meanwhile, at the same time, local agencies had long ago begun recording interviews. And it's only in recent years, towards the end of my career, that we started recording interviews. And that's now gone. I'm not sure where it is exactly now, but it's moving to be sort of the standard because juries are evolving too. They respond to what they see in the news.
They respond to what they see in media. The show CSI was very popular for a number of years, and it led to something called the CSI effect, where jurors came in with an expectation that police forensic science had all the capabilities that they saw on TV. And it's something that... prosecutors would have to educate a jury to sharpen their expectations to make them more realistic. So it's fluid.
I like that you kind of touch on the relationship or the perception of the public of how law enforcement operates. And also just the I think the core character of law enforcement and how the general public views that has changed quite a bit. Obviously, it's been hyper politicized in recent years.
And that came up in your conversation with Michael, which was honestly a little unexpected for me as the viewer, because you were you were coming in to kind of say, hey, this is what I know to be the culture of law enforcement. And he pushed back on that, but then it really quickly escalated to politics at the forefront of culture right now.
Chapter 3: What experiences shaped the guest's view on law enforcement?
So I want to play that back to you, just kind of hear your thoughts on the exchange and see if we can dig into it more.
The thing that I want you to listen to, as I've listened to you, and I want the audience to hear, is that the organization that I work for, which is made up of thousands of human beings who have all the flaws of every person, but the organizational culture that I was raised in, that I served, put a premium on integrity and doing the right thing. Are there agents that give- And I believe you.
Are there agents? Yeah, okay. All right. I believe you. Well, good. And I think that you're sincere in that regard. But can I ask you a question? Why is it that everyone, all of America practically, has no trust in the FBI right now? No trust in our government agencies anymore. Many people have lied to America.
Americans about the FBI and about its actions and have mischaracterized the FBI.
They have mischaracterized. There's a difference. Not people lying. They've observed the FBI. Let me tell you now, I like Kash Patel and Dan Bongino. I know him. Very ethical, good guy with integrity. I'm so happy that he's the deputy director of the FBI because he has integrity. I can't say that for the last people and all of America.
A good portion of America believes the same thing because of their actions.
Actually, I think it's because they're being lied to frequently by figures in the media. By whom? Well, you're doing it right now.
What comes to mind just kind of seeing that exchange play out?
In this day and age, all of us, no matter who you are, We're influenced by the information we take in. And depending on what source we turn to, that will shape our perception. The mission of the FBI is the most diverse of any federal law enforcement agency.
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Chapter 4: How does the culture within law enforcement agencies vary?
I think it all depends on what's happening in the world, what's happening in our domestic politics. If the FBI's mission requires it to investigate a certain matter, depending on what that controversy is about, it may result in this same pattern that we've seen. Regarding all of these investigations, which the Bureau has investigated at times, President Trump has investigated
Hillary Clinton, many Democrats and Republicans, public corruption cases on all sides of the aisle. And those investigations never make anybody happy that supports those individuals. I remember a number of years ago, there was an investigation that led to a search the bureau conducted of, I believe it was the senator's office in Capitol Hill.
And senators from both sides of the aisle were unhappy because that felt very threatening to them. I think law enforcement generally is often a confrontational business. If you're investigating someone, especially someone with power, with clout, with a microphone, you can expect they're going to push back. Police agencies are very limited in what they can say about a matter as it's ongoing.
Historically, they're loathe to comment about things that may wind up in court, whereas the public official or the supporter of that official or prominent person, if it's not a public official, they're not limited in that same way. And so they can make statements and Unfortunately, we're in a hyper-partisan era. So in the short term, I see this as going to be a continuing challenge.
The challenge for the agency, there's no avoiding the job. There's no avoiding the case you get assigned to investigate. The challenge is to keep your head down and to do your job. Part of being a professional is putting one's personal feelings aside. And if those feelings are so strong that you can't fairly investigate, then I think an agent should. And I've done that.
And years ago, I was asked to be part of the Rampart investigation. of the LAPD major corruption scandal. And I had some experience with civil rights cases, so I was approached. But at the time, I was engaged to be married to an LAPD officer who'd been part of that division at one time, knew many of the officers that were going to be scrutinized. I'd met some of them socially.
And I talked to my chain of command about that being perhaps not something I should be involved in, just It wasn't so much that my feelings were so strong that I couldn't be fair, but to anyone on the outside, it might not look right, understandably. And I didn't have to work that. I was excused from that assignment.
So there are times when someone might say, hey, I really shouldn't be part of this. There was an FBI executive who'd had extremely partisan conversations with another employee, Peter Strzok. about Donald Trump in the 2016 campaign, when Robert Mueller learned of those exchanges, he removed Strzok from that investigation properly.
Because again, even if the individual could conceivably be impartial, such strongly held views that had been... made known to former Director Mueller, it just was a bad look and a potential hazard. And so he shouldn't have been involved in that case. And he was shortly removed from it.
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Chapter 5: What is the impact of the media on public trust in the FBI?
In certain cases, yes.
Because of your reputation, the way you held yourself. So fear and intimidation are the basis of some of the leadership and the culture that is within the mafia.
It's not the primary driving force, but yes, it is an element, and some people do use that, yes.
That's my claim. Sounds like you agree with me.
Well, I agree in part.
so much.
Yeah, you guys really got along. I just found that moment, that exchange kind of mesmerizing. What do you think watching back?
I think the program set up to try and force people to disagree and to have that aspect of not agreeing so much that maybe some people won't back down from their claim. And I just love the fact that he was so genuine in understanding, well, what she's trying to say does have some validity or sorry, validity, but that I still believe that it wasn't a primary factor for me.
And if you keep playing that clip, if I remember, there was a portion where he was like, it came down to something about love. And, you know, I don't remember the exact exchange, but he said people don't hurt people they love. And I was like, I see people hurt people they love all the time.
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