Surrounded
Is Body Positivity Disempowering? Follow-up (ft. Jillian Michaels) | Surrounded
22 Mar 2026
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
As long as it is okay to discriminate against fat people, I'm always going to want to fight for that fight.
You can fight that fight in any size pant. Marci, I almost come at this from like death protest too much. I'm a fat person and I'm a fat person. I can't talk. Like, who gives a... I don't give a...
It's kind of, who cares? We are othered in the world constantly, constantly. So it's very hard to step out of that identity when it is a, it is mirrored constantly to me that it is wrong to be fat.
Marcie, Jillian, welcome back from Surrounded into the Surrounded follow-up. Thanks for having us. I feel like the energy is so positive and how are you guys feeling?
Mars, I mean, I it was such an interesting experience to, you know, be in that room and meet Jillian. And, you know, since then, I think there's been a lot to think about. And yeah, I mean, I'm always excited to have a conversation like this.
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Chapter 2: How do childhood experiences shape our views on body image?
I love this topic. I think that anybody with a body is going to be interested in this conversation. So I'm just happy to be here and happy to see both of you.
We kind of cheated a little bit because we have been talking just about like, even we have, but, but as friends. So, so to be fair, like we did have some conversations about this, but she's also been trying to help me cast certain people on my podcast and just been having random conversations about different stuff. So that's Dean list. So to be fair, like if there's a,
familiarity it's just simply because we've had some offline i love that i love that we may or may or we may or may not have had lunch together and i mean even that is like what do you order for lunch when you're with jillian michaels um except that she took me to a very healthy place and so it was quite easy to make my decision um but you know what i think is so beautiful about this and i think that what is needed more now ever
is people from opposite sides talking. And your show is called Surrounded and it's 20 to 1. But what we need more of is 1 to 1. And I remember growing up and people from all different sides of politics or whatever would talk. And you would go to a friend's house. And I remember meeting my friend in high school who her family was Democrat.
Chapter 3: What does Jillian Michaels say about identifying as 'fat'?
And at my Catholic high school, they were like the only ones. But it wasn't the way it is now where we're just so polarized. And yeah, I mean, I think it's like Jillian's a human. I'm a human. And we made a connection that day. That conversation was electric. And there is something that both of us have to offer one another. And I mean, hopefully we'll continue to have that talk here with you.
Well, wonderful. You guys did all the work for me. This is great. We're going to play a clip just so you can kind of relive and kind of reflect on sort of your interaction. But I agree with you, Marcy. There was chemistry. It was really interesting. It got really personal. You both had kind of a great rapport.
So let's watch a clip of that, and then I'd love to kind of hear what it brings up for you.
Shame is a signal. It's telling you, hey, look over here. But shame from the world. I'm not talking about shaming someone. Fundamentally disagree with that concept. I'm talking about the shame that is already there, not externalizing it. I'm talking about appreciating the fact like, okay, this is arising from within me. Where is this coming from and why? What is the primal injury
that got this emotion and subsequently, how do I deal with it where it's appropriate? Meaning the right, like not Victoria's Secret, okay? The primal wound.
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Chapter 4: How does trauma influence our relationship with fitness?
And then in experiencing that loss, feeling those feelings, which really sucks and really hurts, which is why people have defense structures, coping mechanisms, so on and so forth. The way through that, you feel it. And then after you grieve it, after you explore it, then we can implement a weight release.
no no trauma no i've released it and therefore then i will be thin here's the thing john i want to be really real about this and and i am so like committed and have built this brand and like the plus size and body acceptance and fat acceptance world but it's like there's nothing more and i'll just speak for myself i won't speak for all fat people as a monolith because they aren't
But there's nothing that I would want more than to sit across from someone like Jillian, the world's basically foremost trainer, and be like, yeah, let's go. Put me on your plan. Fix me. Let's go. Do I think that people that have trauma are... Like, what about all the thin people with trauma? Like, why did I get that gene? You know, like, what is... That's where it's, like, hard for me because...
One, I want to acknowledge not only how beautiful and eloquent and interesting Jillian is to listen to, but it's like if it's... No, you are. I mean, obviously it's like you're not a therapist. You're not a therapist. You're not a politician. And yet here you are being like given these platforms to speak at a level of expertise that it's like you're not dumb.
I know that you've put a lot of work and research into all of these things. And I think that all of it... makes sense to a degree. And there's just parts of it, you know, that I struggle with. And so I just want to acknowledge that for me, it's like to sit across from a Jillian Michaels and say, yeah, like I would want to help you, whether you want to call it an intervention or whatever.
It would be foolish of me to say no, thank you. I might wanna say, this doesn't work for me, that doesn't work for me. And I think that's part of meeting in the middle. But yeah, I mean, for me, I would love to have a weight release. I don't certainly want to feel shoulder pain when I wake up in the morning from sleeping on my side.
I understand the physical limitations that being a bigger bodied person will have eventually. I also know that this is my genetics in part. And so there's just, it's just like such a multifaceted thing.
Well, first of all, thank you, sweetheart.
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Chapter 5: Why is the concept of body positivity debated?
And it's absolutely a mutual admiration and appreciation for the way you communicate and the way you present yourself and who you are in the world. Okay. There's a lot to unpack there. I'm trying to figure out where I want to go first.
I would say off the top, I would never work with you under the pretense of an intervention because an intervention implies you're going down the wrong path and we have to jump in. Myself and all your loved ones, I've contacted all of them. I'm sure there's a time and a place for that. That's nothing that I personally engage in. For me, I can only be effective
When I have a partnership with somebody who wants to utilize me as a tool, that's all that I am. I can't be the captain of your ship. You know, you and I have kind of had a little bit of that conversation. Truthfully, I think of myself like a vampire. I don't bite unless you invite me in. I really don't care what's on your plate. I don't care what's in your grocery.
But seriously, if somebody asks me for help, well, now you've engaged me, and now I'll participate in... The ways you tell me you'll find useful. So I want to clarify that, that if Marcy tells me, okay, Jill, you seem to understand a lot about nutrition. You seem to understand a lot about fitness. You seem to understand a lot about how to facilitate weight loss on a physiological level.
You seem to have some understanding of the psychological elements to this. Some of it rings true for me. Some of it doesn't. I'm 100% here for that, but it has to start there. And that's what I think is so important is we're both like, okay, so where do we go? The next thing I would say to you is what rings true for you and then what doesn't? So I would continue to explore this.
So my question to you is when you watch that talk and you hear all the things that were said, what comes up for you that feels on target?
Hmm.
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Chapter 6: What are the psychological implications of body image issues?
I mean, I think that what fat liberation has given to me is liberation, right? It's like liberation in general. I think that the fat world is very queer. There's a lot of intersection. And so in general, coming from a more conservative background, I think that fat liberation has really just pushed me towards general liberation, feminism, understanding the patriarchy.
understanding how we all operate kind of table all the table. I just want to hear about shame, shame and shame and fear. Tell me how Marcy feels. To me, I have done so much work to liberate myself from shame and fear. being raised in what we call Hispanic panic.
So constant fear of the world, of all sorts of things, and fear and shame is just something I feel like I've worked so hard to let go of. And mostly it's probably shame around other things, not having a traditional lifestyle, not wanting children, being divorced, which is a new thing that I'm adding to my plate of things to be ashamed of.
So for me, it's like I just don't think that the shame, the way of using shame as a tool, it just doesn't resonate with me. It feels really abusive. Like it just doesn't feel right.
Well, when I watch that clip, you know, I see you really engaging with the ideas that Jillian's presenting you. And then at the very end, when you do that kind of weight release, I'm like, oh, wait, maybe they're not landing as I thought. But this idea of shame being kind of a signal, Jillian's kind of pointing out like shame is coming from within and it's maybe like a survival signal.
And so maybe not the shame. There's maybe a distinction like shame that people put on you that can be just mean spirited and not necessarily something that's constructive. And you're kind of expressing that. I want to be liberated from that. But Jillian's sort of talking about this other idea of shame, like a signal from within, like almost like a biological thing.
Like, hey, this is me saying to protect myself. Does that resonate with you? Do you see light between those two concepts?
And to clarify, John, real quick, also where to do some work. So if I could address just one thing you said right there where you're talking about your divorce. Another thing to feel ashamed about. That's something I would explore with you.
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Chapter 7: How do societal standards affect personal health decisions?
Why do you feel ashamed about that? What comes up for you there? I've been through divorce and it was really hard and really awful and I felt horrible for my children but I'm not ashamed of it. So this is something that is sitting with you. Why? And I think there's A place that we could help you evolve out of pain. The shame is telling you, I have pain here. I feel less than in these areas.
This makes me feel weak and insecure. Why? And so what I'm telling you is that, oh my God, this is a great area for you to explore in order to evolve out of that pain. That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying you should feel ashamed. No, no, no, no, no. I'm telling you it's a spotlight, and it should be utilized as such to articulate a bit further on top of what John said.
I mean, yes. Here's the thing. It's really also hard for me as a fat person to like be here and be like, yeah, I sat with Jillian Michaels and like, I kind of like, I'm kind of into it. You know, I think this is a person and you know, I think the elephant in the room and we did sort of start to talk about it. And even in that clip, I was like, wait, are you talking about the show or not?
You know, I think so many people wanted to see you in the documentary and like want to hear, and I know you've talked about it on your podcast, your experiences of the show. And what I have taken away as well is like, Again, meeting you as a person, seeing that it's actually very fun. Y'all should try it. Talking to people of different points of view.
It makes for very interesting lunches and dinners. But, you know, as a fat person who did not watch The Biggest Loser, so was not personally attacked by it, was not personally affected by it. You know what? as a TV producer, I know also happened to you, is that you were vilified.
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Chapter 8: What strategies can help in overcoming body image struggles?
You were put as this... Stop, stop. No, you don't need to judge. I'm just saying I can buy into what you're saying. It's just you are also the face of what so many fat people are like, oh my God, no, Satan, it's the biggest... Fair, fair.
Can I address that?
Yes.
What I'm hearing from you What I'm hearing from you is that, and you have said this now, I've counted, I think, at least eight times, as a fat person, as a fat person, as a fat person. Now, there's nothing wrong with that. But the fact that you feel the need to reiterate it shows me that it's become a structure within your identity.
And I think there's some element of betrayal that you're implicating about talking to me. It's like, but as a fat person, I can't talk to you. But as a fat person, it's disloyal. But as a fat person, you're the enemy. And that's also very interesting. you know, what, what are you guarding against? I would say, what does being a fat person mean to you?
Is it some sort of like, again, Marcy, I almost come at this from like death protest too much. I'm a fat person and I'm a fat person. I can't talk like who gives it. I don't give a this kind of who cares what you're telling me is that you're a person who was hurt and that pain manifested in a certain way. That's all I see.
I kind of wish you'd see it in a similar fashion because by making it a part of your identity, you're holding onto something that's quite honestly irrelevant and doesn't serve you. I'm not telling you it's bad. I'm not telling you to judge yourself for it. I kind of actually want you to remove any opinion or label around it. And just explore mercy.
Yes. And I think it as I've grown up literally always in this body, I've literally never been thin. And even when I look at photos now and I'm like, oh, if I looked that way, you would think I had cancer. Like I was so thin and I thought I was so fat. So I do think it's a part of my identity. And I think that that is part of what's so challenging.
I think even to like get across in these conversations, it's like. It may not have to be a part of... Actually, even if I lost weight, I think it would always be a part of my identity somehow because even the way that I think it affects people psychologically after they're fat, like when you hear people who are like, I lost 200 pounds and people treat me super differently and...
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