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Why Building AI At DeepMind Feels Like ‘Surfing’

29 Apr 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.031 - 19.703 Unknown

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human. 2%. That's the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter. And on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

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This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

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On the Look Back At It podcast.

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1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

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I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English. Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s.

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84 was a wild year. I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's good, y'all? You're listening to Learn the Hard Way with your favorite therapist and host, Keir Gaines.

108.895 - 119.83 Oz Veloshin

This space is about Black men's experiences, having honest conversations that it's really not safe to have anywhere, but you're having them with a licensed professional who knows what he's doing. How many men...

Chapter 2: What insights did Ali Eslami share about his work at DeepMind?

734.488 - 761.036 Ali Eslami

Well, one thing that's really changed is 10 years ago when we were doing research, it really felt like it was separate from the real world. So when friends or family would ask me, what are you working on? What do you see that we should know about? I would be describing something that Totally abstract. It was abstract. It was in the lab.

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761.437 - 788.478 Ali Eslami

And maybe I could point to a research paper that they could go and read and so on. One thing that's changed is that the research that happens in AI today gets turned into products very, very rapidly. So... The stuff that you use when you go to Google or OpenAI or Anthropic or whoever else is actually very, very close to the frontier of what's possible anywhere in the world.

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788.959 - 792.705 Ali Eslami

So in that sense, pretty much what you're experiencing is what we're experiencing.

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793.126 - 797.513 Oz Veloshin

Except you know how to interrogate in a way that we don't, right?

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797.662 - 807.953 Ali Eslami

Yeah, perhaps. And also I spend a lot of time actually using this stuff. Most people might be using it to the extent that it helps their personal lives or careers, but it's my job to interrogate it, as you were saying.

809.034 - 819.365 Oz Veloshin

And I think that's an important point because when we talked before this, you mentioned that for the last couple of years, you viewed yourself as a builder. And now you've described the feeling of surfing.

820.727 - 846.681 Ali Eslami

Right, yeah. I mean, I think the surfing... has been around for a long time, actually. So what I mean by surfing is that the sea is tumultuous and there's waves of innovation that come. And I see my role as being one of a surfer where I have to be leaning just enough into the future to kind of make forward progress, but not too far that I fall into the abyss.

847.402 - 872.119 Ali Eslami

And so, so much of the job is to keep track of what's going on and to push just a little bit. And going back to your earlier question, I think most people in the audience, I'm sure, have used chatbots and image generators and so on. And that's something that we're familiar with. Earlier, we heard about agentic commerce and agentic kind of chat experiences.

872.179 - 899.016 Ali Eslami

I think one thing that perhaps is less familiar for a wider audience is these... People still use the word agentic for them, but it's a slightly different concept where an AI is actually in control of a full computer and it acts on your behalf with your credentials, possibly for hours or days on a task that you set it.

Chapter 3: How does Ali describe the experience of building AI like surfing?

1037.961 - 1057.675 Ali Eslami

So in the past, yes, we humans built systems that did cool things, but we didn't really fully understand what they were. But now we're in a realm where we build systems and those systems can continue to work on themselves. They can continue to change their capabilities. In fact, we want them to continuously change their capabilities.

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1057.84 - 1073.525 Ali Eslami

So as researchers, our jobs become slightly more like social scientists almost, or anthropologists, where you're kind of measuring and steering the evolution of complex system or society.

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1075.068 - 1083.882 Oz Veloshin

You've described your own work as creative, I think, and I know you're also an artist. What can we learn from your creative process in terms of how you

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1084.385 - 1107.388 Ali Eslami

build and interact with ai systems what can we extrapolate from that about the future of human creativity right okay i mean future of human creativity is super broad so i can only share my own personal experience um i have been really struck by how much my job has changed uh in the past couple of years um

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1108.01 - 1139.106 Ali Eslami

careers obviously normally change as you get more senior, but I'm talking about something different. The nature of the job has profoundly changed, I would say at least three or four times in the past three or four years. And the time span between the changes has only decreased. So there was the era before deep learning. Then there was the time between deep learning and chat GPT.

1139.126 - 1159.449 Ali Eslami

That was about 10 years. Then between chat GPT and maybe two years ago, that was like two or three years. Then there was a year when the tech was becoming much more public. Then just since the beginning of this year with OpenClaw, that's been two or three months ago, And now the capabilities keep going up and up.

1159.989 - 1182.577 Ali Eslami

Each one of these moments, as a practitioner, as a researcher, I basically had to completely set aside my previous tool set and pick up a new tool set in order to continue my job. So imagine if I was a carpenter or an artist, without exaggeration, it would be like putting away all of your brushes and then moving to photography as a medium. That's happened three or four times.

1183.378 - 1210.174 Ali Eslami

And I think that there is no indication that that's going to stop. I think as I fully expect my job to transform again in those ways, I suspect many other professions will feel this too with a bit of a time delay. So we're super aggressively using these AIs to redefine our own jobs in AI. And I suspect other professions will feel the same.

1210.643 - 1230.852 Oz Veloshin

Yeah, I think many people feel like if I'm not up to date and using the latest suite of AI tools, I'm inevitably being left behind, which is kind of a bad feeling. Obviously, you're at DeepMind, which is basically building the future, but you're also in a race with Claude, with Anthropic, and with OpenAI.

Chapter 4: What challenges did Ali face in the development of AI Search?

1474.732 - 1519.661 Oz Veloshin

Ali Aslami, thank you. When we come back, a conversation about the power of technology and media to change culture even under fire. We talk a lot on this show about protecting your data, especially in the age of AI, and how scary it can be when it's breached. And I want to tell you today about NordVPN, which really covers all the bases when it comes to privacy.

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Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart. Streaming, radio, and podcasting. Call 844-844-iHeart to get started. That's 844-844-iHeart. 2%. That is the number of people who take the stairs when there is also an escalator available. I'm Michael Easter, and on my podcast, 2%, I break down the science of mental toughness, fitness, and building resilience in our strange modern world.

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I'll be speaking with writers, researchers, and other health and fitness experts and more to look past the impractical and way too complex pseudoscience that dominates the wellness industry. We really believe that seed oils were inherently inflammatory. We got it wrong. Many of the problems that we are freaked out about in the world are the result of stress.

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Put yourself through some hardships, and you will come out on the other side a happier, more fulfilled, healthier person. Listen to 2%, that's T-W-O percent, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Chapter 5: What has been the impact of the AI Search technology on Google?

1666.049 - 1687.132 Oz Veloshin

A win is a win. A win is a win. I don't care what y'all say. Yep, that's me, Clifford Taylor IV. You might have seen the skits, the reactions, my journey from basketball to college football, or my career in sports media. Well, somewhere along the way, this platform became bigger than I ever imagined. And now I'm bringing all of that excitement to my brand new podcast, The Clifford Show.

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This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with some of your favorite athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. One week, I'll take you behind the scenes of the biggest moments in sports and entertainment. And the next, we'll talk about life, mental health, purpose, and even music. The Clifford Show isn't just a podcast.

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It's a space for honest conversations, stories that don't always get told, and for people who are chasing something bigger. So if you've ever supported me or you're just chasing down a dream, this is right where you need to be. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

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Do you remember when Diana Ross double-tapped Lil' Kim's boobs at the VMAs? Or when Kanye said that George Bush didn't like black people? I know what you're thinking. What the hell does George Bush got to do with Lil' Kim? Well, you can find out on the Look Back At It podcast. I'm Sam Jay. And I'm Alex English.

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Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it.

1750.126 - 1757.935 Oz Veloshin

Including a recent episode with Mark Lamont Hill waxing all about crack in the 80s. To be clear, 84 was big to me, not just because of crack.

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Yeah.

1759.587 - 1767.255 Oz Veloshin

I'm down to talk about crack all day, but just so y'all know. I mean, at this point, Mark, this is the second episode where we've discussed crack. So I'm starting to see that there's a through line.

Chapter 6: How has Saad Mohseni influenced media in Afghanistan?

3073.233 - 3091.636 Oz Veloshin

This is a place for raw, unfiltered conversations with athletes, creators, and voices that not only deserve to be heard, but celebrated. So let's get to it. Listen to The Clifford Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for more behind the scenes, follow at Clifford and at TikTok Podcast Network on TikTok.

0

3092.036 - 3093.378 Unknown

On the Look Back At It podcast.

0

3093.398 - 3096.403 Oz Veloshin

1979, that was a big moment for me. 84 was big to me.

0

3097.024 - 3097.685 Unknown

I'm Sam Jay.

0

3097.925 - 3099.187 Oz Veloshin

And I'm Alex English.

3099.387 - 3112.307 Unknown

Each episode, we pick a year, unpack what went down, and try to make sense of how we survived it. With our friends, fellow comedians, and favorite authors. Like Mark Lamont Hill on the 80s. 84 was a wild year. It was a wild year.

3112.347 - 3121.928 Oz Veloshin

I don't think there's a more important year for black people. Listen to Look Back at It on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

3121.948 - 3126.333 Unknown

My mother-in-law spent years sabotaging our relationship until karma made her pay for it.

3126.453 - 3128.976 Oz Veloshin

All right, Sophia, tell me about how we started this story.

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