Chapter 1: What is the significance of marrying someone with the same name as a parent?
Good afternoon, everybody. So there was a line in this morning's dafiyomi that caught my eye, and I thought I had spoken about it before in the past, but I could not find it anywhere online. Maybe I haven't, I just don't have good searching skills.
But the line that caught my eye was that the Gemara quotes something from someone by the name of Rami Bartamri, who was the father-in-law of Rami Bartikuli, which means that the father-in-law and son-in-law had the same name. Now that is against B'Ferusha Tzavas Rabi Yudah Chassid to have a son-in-law and a father-in-law with the same name.
So the shayla becomes, is it muter to marry someone, whether it be a father-in-law, son-in-law, mother-in-law, daughter-in-law, with the same name. And more importantly than that discussion, because we're going to see there's not much in halakha, against that, but more importantly is how do you manage it?
How do you then deal with calling your spouse around the house when your husband or wife, whatever, depending on which direction it goes in, has the same name? Now, it should be pointed out that there is an alternate kirsten in the Gemara, the Rif, in Masach HaSchulun,
has the Gersen, it's pointed out on the side of the page, and that goes for Tzulim on the side of the page, that it's Rami bar Tamri, to who Rami bar Dikuli?
It makes sense, his father's name was Tamri and Dikuli, Dekel and Tamar, you know, it's probably, there's some theme over there, in terms of the name of the father, so the alternate Gersen, but there are other Gemara's and Sha's, there are other Gemara's and Sha's also, where we see that a father-in-law and a son-in-law have the same name.
It also could be that one of them is spelled Rami with Resh Alef Mem Yod, and the other one is Resh Mem Yod, and it could be that they're pronounced differently. The Chuvah Zekan Aron Chael Beisam and Samech makes that Ha'ara. So let's first talk about whether there's any problem with marrying someone with the same name as a parent, and then we'll talk about how to manage that situation.
So as far as doing it in the first place, so it's a Tzavah Srabi Yudah HaChassid. where he says that you're not supposed to do it, and he doesn't give any reason for it. So the Akhronim try to figure out what the reason is. Why can't you marry somebody that is the same name as your parents? So in the Tshuvos Priya Sada, He says it's Ayin Hara, somehow that it's going to be...
an ayin harat, that if ever there's a gzardin against one of the people, it's going to go on the wrong person, it's going to land in the wrong spot in the family, and it's not a good thing.
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Chapter 2: What does Jewish law say about marrying someone with the same name as a parent?
I actually have a Talmud whose mother will not let him go out with any girl that has the same name as his grandmother who's deceased, because then it's guaranteed that your children aren't going to be named after my mother. It's a short-sighted. It's guaranteed that that name is going to stay in the family for a while. If not that generation, then the next generation. Okay, whatever.
Unfortunately, he's still single, but he keeps getting red girls with that name over and over and over again. It's like a cool joke. Anyway, so Lomai Naft Kamina, which of the reasons applies? Which of the reasons is correct? So it could be that if they don't live in proximity to one another, that would be Naft Kamina.
So both in terms of being in the middle of the night, that the wrong one is going to come is a very minimal concern if they don't live in the same room as each other. And if they don't live near each other, how often is it going to happen that you're going to call somebody by the wrong name? Most obvious Naft Kamina is if there's Mechila.
that if a parent is mochel on their kavod, so then they could be mochel on that perhaps. And if that's the whole concern, so then mechila l'chora should work. That does not mean that the child should say to the parent, you are mochel on your kavod, because the parent has to actually be mochel on their kavod.
Chapter 3: How can you manage calling your spouse with the same name as a parent?
That's not up to the child to dictate whether the parent is mochel on their kavod or not. So I don't understand what to do with this. In Chachmas Adam, in Chalkuf Chaf Gimel, Osir Gimel, he says everyone misunderstood Rabbi Yudah Chassid. Rabbi Yudah Chassid was only talking about if there are three generations of the same name. Two generations of the same name is not a problem.
It's only a problem if it comes down to a third generation. And the Chuvus Imre Eish in Yerodea, Simit Samech, says that it shouldn't be a problem at all. However, in the Tzemach Tzedek,
Lubavitch, some have said that he, not the Kadmon, he accepts the Nodibud in general, but he says that there's a different problem if it's Tafka, a girl, marrying someone with the same name as the mother, because that Alpide Arizal, in addition to whatever Nodibud says, Alpide Arizal, that's going to be problematic.
In the Tzemach Tzedek, he writes in Piskei Dinim and Yardeasim Kofta Zayin, that the fact that the Amorayim did something does not mean that it's not a concern for us. Meaning the Amorayim were very holy people, and if there's some sort of spiritual damage that can come about, maybe they were protected from that damage because they were very holy people.
Maybe we're not on that level of Kedusha to be protected from that damage. Some sofer writes in Avnezer, that basically a middle approach. And the same thing. If this is the kind of thing that concerns you, so God should be concerned. If it's not the kind of thing that concerns you, then you don't have to be concerned.
Okay, so let's say you're going to marry somebody that has the same name as a parent. So now what do you do? Are you allowed to call them by their name when your parent is there, when your parent is not there? Are you limited in any way? So the Gemara in Kiddush in Daf Kufa Merav tells us that when a Chacham is saying a shir and he's quoting his father or his rabbi, he should change the name.
He shouldn't call them by their name. The Gemara in Sanhedrin goes even further on Daf Kufa Merav. The Gemara tells us that... It calls someone an apikores. It gives examples of who is an apikores. It gives examples of who is an apikores. It gives examples of who is an apikores. The Rambam writes, Don't call your father by his name, even after he's dead.
You don't call him by his name, you say, He says, But then he adds, That's only if it's an unusual name. If his name is Moshe, his name is Avram, so then it's not an unusual name. But it's only a problem if it's an unusual name. No one's 100% sure. Well, okay, we'll get to the Rambam later.
But the Shulchan Aruch Paschim, Rish Memseth Beis, Lo Yikreinu B'shmo, Lo B'chaiv, Lo B'mosah, Lo Merah B'mari. Right, like that first Rambam. Now, the question is, okay, so you're not supposed to call your parent by their name. What if somebody else has that same name? Are you allowed to call that person by the same name that your parent has?
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Chapter 4: What are the possible reasons against marrying someone with the same name as a parent?
He got it from Abaye. Abaye's name was Nachmeni. Rabbah called him Abaye because his father's name was Nachmeni. And everyone also called him Abaye except for Rabbah who would call him Nachmeni. Everyone else called him Abaye just out of covet for Rabbah who raised him. Because Rabbah was Rabbah bar Nachmeni.
It's a reference to Rashi in Gittin, Davlam, and Dalam Beis that Abaye was called that because he was raised by Rabbah bar Nachmeni even though his real name was Abaye. And he was later also named after Nachmeni, Rabbah's father. So that's exactly how that happened. Which was his real name? Was Nachman his real name or was Abaye his real name? How do we pass him?
You have someone else who has the same name as your parents and you're trying to call them. So Shulchan Aruch writes, He implies that there is no Yisr whatsoever if it's a normal name.
Chapter 5: What does Rabbi Yudah Chassid say about this naming issue?
But he also implies that if it's an unusual name, it's Asr ibn Shalom befanim. That it all depends, normal name or unusual. So if the name is any common name nowadays, sounds from the simple reading of the Shulchan Aruch that it's going to be a problem to call your spouse by that name. The Drisha is quoted by the Shach and Sivkat and Gimel.
He says, no, no, in order to be Asr, it needs to be an unusual name and in front of the father. If either one of those is not present, then it's going to be mutter. So it's the opposite extreme. Khayy Adam writes that in order to be Asr, it needs to be Hashem Pali and also in front of the father. However, Rav Moshe says that things have changed nowadays.
Chapter 6: How does the concept of Ayin Hara relate to this discussion?
Everybody, no one calls their father by the name. who calls their father dad or Abba or Tati or something like that so even the Ramah would say that a regular name can be called even in front of him if you're calling your spouse no one's going to think that you're calling your father by his first name because nobody does that says the says Rav Moshe
Your father will think you're calling him and other people will think you're calling him. So if there's no makom litos where no one's going to have that thought so then it's not a problem. So that's what Rav Moshe writes. I think the most common practice is
that when it's in front of the father, you make up a pet name for your spouse. They should call it honey, dear, sweetheart, whatever. I don't know. People have other names that are not as complimentary, but you should call something else for your spouse so that it's obvious that you're not calling the father by the name.
My sister-in-law is a great-granddaughter of Moshe Feinstein. So I asked my brother, what did Rebetzin Tender call Rabbi Tender? because Rabbi Tandler was Rabbi Moshe David Tandler and Moshe Feinstein was Rabbi Moshe Feinstein. So did she call him Moshe in front of... So my brother said by the time he came into the family, Moshe was no longer alive.
So I don't know what she called him in front of Moshe. But I can tell you that every time I saw them interact, she always called him Moshe. She didn't call him Moshe, she called him Moshe. And he said, I can guarantee you there is no one on this planet that called Moshe Feinstein Moshe. So that was a pretty safe bet that she was calling him something that left no room for any...
for any mistake as to who they were referring to. Okay, everyone have a great day.
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