Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hello and welcome to the Arch of Decluttering podcast. I'm your host, Amy Revell, and I have an amazing guest with me today. And you're going to feel seen and you're going to walk away with some ideas of how to move from like, I know what to do, but I don't do it, to I'm actually able to do things. So Monica Packer is a habits and identity coach.
He was known for her powerful message around progress over perfection. Oh my goodness, don't we all need that? She's helped thousands of women who live real lives to develop realistic, sustainable action. Everyone life's busy and full and there's lots of things going on.
Chapter 2: How can we bridge the gap between knowing and doing?
So welcome, Monica.
Well, I'm so pleased to be here and I definitely feel like we are in the friend territory already.
I know. I love that. It's very quick friends when you're interviewing someone for a podcast and when you've got the same values, I just think it's like, yes, this is my person. Yeah, I agree. So many, Monica, of my listeners and my community talk about like, I know what to do. I know the thing, the right thing that I should be doing. But then for some reason that doesn't translate into action.
And so there's this gap between I know what I should do and I want to do it sometimes, but I'm not doing it. I'd love to know what is with that gap.
In truth, I think it's a lack of knowledge. And that's going to make them feel bad when I say that. And I just want to hit pause and say, don't feel bad. This is another thing where you're going to get blamed for how you don't follow through. The lack of knowledge doesn't come down to you not knowing what to do. It's more about you've been taught incorrectly. That's what I'm after.
This is especially true for your listeners who are caretakers in any form. That's honestly all women. And there's so much research behind this. But we have to do things differently. And in the self-help space, especially with habits, and I would say anything like wellness-oriented, anything really, most of the leaders there are male leaders.
And we're not going to, you know, say, wear our pitchforks. Let's... Let's go get these men. Men are the worst. That's not the message. The message is more. It's an accidental belief that what they have to share is gender... What's the word? Um...
to everyone?
Yeah. When in reality, our lives are different from men. And that's due to invisible labor, which has been a decades-long source of research from sociologists to economists to everything you can possibly think of, even psychology, about the invisible loads we carry as women. And that's anything mental or physical that you do to keep family homes and even workplaces afloat.
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Chapter 3: What are the misconceptions about habit formation?
Yes. So what is, tell me about this education piece, if that's kind of forming a lot of the gap between
Yeah, talk a little bit more about that. Okay, so we already leveled with some truth here, kind of like those big light bulbs of like, oh, I must do habits differently. And that involves like so many things from the way that you care for yourself, the way you manage your household and work, your physical body, like it just transcends to so many different things.
So when you know that, then you can get curious about how to do habits differently. And I'm just going to point out a few things. Maybe we can talk about what's wrong with other ways we see habits thanks to the methods of yonder years, okay?
And what's wrong is most of the time, and this is true with almost anything self-help and wellness again, is the way things are taught are very black and white, very certainty bound. And I'll tell you, that's because it's easier to teach that way. It's easier to learn that way. It's more profitable. And it's easier to sell. It's easier to market. Easier to market. Yeah.
It is so much harder to talk about, hey, not every day looks the same. There's nuance internally, externally. There's factors that don't go according to plan. There's circumstances that pop up, you know, and that's harder to sell because people love the idea of a black and white method that leads to very certain outcomes. If I follow A to Z, then I will get exactly what I want.
And so people teach it that way.
Instead, what we need to consider is how to have a way of looking at habits and our lives and designing our lives around our habits and our habits around our lives, where that is all not just like ignored or kind of like shuffled off to the wings, like be quiet, just pretend, like pretend that everything is the same every single day and that you have like an endless resource of energy and support and no interruptions and all the predictability in the world.
Shh, just pretend. But in reality, we need to know, like, how do we just know, like, hey, come on the stage. If all of these factors are here, how can we, instead of saying, well, then I guess what's the point? Don't try. How do we instead work with these things and still have the end results or at least a version of it that we want? Because there's a reason we want these things, right?
There's a reason and they're good and valuable. So think about that. Like, why does this matter to me? And if it really does come down to, well, because Sally down the street does it that way, that's probably not good enough reason. Or because so-and-so said it online and I bet it was like a bro self-help guy.
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Chapter 4: How does invisible labor affect women's habits?
Like these are good men and they have great methods, but they aren't designed for us as they teach consistency as rigid perfection. OK, so that's why you get the 21, 28, 30 day habit challenges.
Yeah.
And how many of us I think we could all raise our hand have gotten partway through a challenge and had to stop whether earlier in the middle or right at the end. And then it feels like none of it mattered. And then you just fall off the wagon. Yeah. And also just there's a whole other part to that, too. We can talk about what's let me get focused on this.
Consistency, instead of it being rigid perfection, because that's certainty bound, right? That's black and white. That's all or nothing thinking. Here's a new definition I'd like your audience to consider. Consistency is doing your best most of the time over time. Your best is not perfection, okay? Your best is what you actually can give.
And that can change day to day, and it can change season to season. I mean that both figurative and literal, okay?
I love that, Monica. I love every word in that.
Good. Okay, so we got even that best part. The other part I said most of the time.
Yes.
Your target for consistency is more times than not. Amazing. Okay. And the last part I said is overtime. So we love the 21, 28, 30 day challenges because it feels fast, right? Like we can get it quickly. But in reality, anytime we're trying to change, including with habits, we're playing the long game. And so that's one of the biggest things we need to redefine.
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Chapter 5: What is the importance of starting with a baseline habit?
There are going to be days where you're like, this is the worst kind of day. I don't have any energy and I have so little time. I can do my walk on the block. And then you're like, I can do another block. And you come home and you're like, who's an Olympian? Me. Me. I'm an Olympian. I smashed it.
And then, you know, another day, you're gonna have your ideal time and you're gonna be able to do that 30 minutes. And because you've already been in the habit of moving your body, period. It will be easier on the days where you have the ideal days. And more and more often, you have more ideal days. And what's cool is your baselines grow too.
Eventually, your baselines could be the two block limit. So you're never stuck with that baseline. It's a starter, but it's also a net for you to fall back on. If habits are helpers, that's one of the things they do. They support us. They lift us up. They give us something to fall on to.
Yeah, you've got that kind of framework behind you. And I can really picture how like in say a kitchen that is overwhelming where the bench is like full of stuff and the dishes are everywhere. You might have like ultimately what I would love is a clear bench. I'd love to wake up in the morning and everything is fresh.
But actually what this habit might look like is I'm just going to make sure that we put the dishwasher on every night. Yes. And so you also might then teach the kids how to put the dishwasher on so that even if there's a day when you can't physically do it, so you kind of – and then what you're doing is I suppose you're raising the foundation.
You're saying, okay, well, now we've got this thing. Like, you know when they do the plate spinning thing? It's almost like you're just getting like the easiest starter plate started, I guess. That's right. And you're like, okay, well now that the dishwasher runs every night, I feel like maybe I could do the hand washing each night too. So it's less caked on in the morning from the dinner before.
Like, so it's kind of like finding those things that are going to make, that are easy to do. but will make a difference, right? Is that kind of the concept around it?
That's totally it. And there's some cool science behind this. I mean, do you just think about one of the laws of physics, laws of motion, a ball of motion stays in motion. So even the baseline creates momentum that builds in that moment or in other ways. Like you may be able to start the dishwasher and wipe off the counter.
Yeah.
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Chapter 6: How can we make habits sustainable over time?
And we want these habits to already be ones in existence. And this is where a lot of people are like, I don't have any habits. I'm like, yes, you do. Do you brush your teeth? Do you brush your hair? Do you get dressed? Do you start the dishwasher? Do you clear the plates? Do you wash your hands? I hope when you use the bathroom.
There are so many habits that you have that you don't even know are habits because they are habit. Like they're just a habit. So this is, I'll just give you the framework I have. And it's WTA is what I call the sticky habit formula. This is all timing based. When, then, after. When is the existing habit? So maybe we do the whole dishwasher one, okay?
When I clear the plates, because you already do that. Let's pretend. If you don't, that's okay. You can have another habit you attach it to, but let's say this person does. So when I'm done clearing the plates, then I'll start the dishwasher or then I'll put them in the dishwasher, okay?
Okay.
And that's your when then pairing. That's your baseline. Ideally, maybe it's I load the dishwasher and I start it. And then I wipe off the counter. Like maybe you have this whole like clean up routine you want. But on the worst of day, you can help start loading the dishwasher for the night or for that meal. Okay. That's your baseline.
After is when you affirm in yourself being the person that does that kind of thing. Ooh, I like that. Yeah, it's positive reinforcement. Okay, so this is just brain psychology. This is how we change our behaviors is we use positive reinforcement. If you've ever potty trained a little kid or an animal, then you know positive reinforcement is really important. It's true for any skill.
We do that to ourselves and we don't have to stick with it forever. It can drop off quite naturally and actually not that far into creating a habit. But it's really important in the beginning, not just to help your brain want to do that habit again because it felt good, but also because you're rewiring the identity piece. So look at me, I'm going to cleaning up.
That's all you have to say to yourself or just like... experience that little pride in yourself that you did it.
Yeah. And do you think that that changes whether you're intrinsically or extrinsically motivated? Like I know Gretchen Rubin talks a lot about this motivation stuff. So if you're Yeah, like does that help in both scenarios where you say, oh, look at me, I'm someone who stacks the dishwasher at nighttime. Is the actual act of stacking the dishwasher also positively reinforcing for some people?
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Chapter 7: What are practical examples of implementing micro habits?
Grace is the best word I can think of to describe the way that you're describing habits is there's a whole lot of grace in it. But the habits are really important because you value the outcomes or because you value the reason that you're engaging in the habits. Like your values are kind of that foundation maybe. And then you walk that out with grace.
Yeah.
And, you know, this gets to something that we won't have time to get into as much. But thanks to my own perfectionist background and the all or nothing pendulum swing I went on, I was 20 years of all. And then I was 10 years of nothing. And I had to figure out in between. A big part of learning how to do something was learning how to speak to myself differently. The shame voice was so powerful.
So strong, so entrenched, and so deep in my subconscious. That's the only way I knew how to navigate trying to improve my life. And that's why I had been in the nothing side. Shame is there for the nothing side just as much as it is for the all. So self-compassion is a huge piece to this. And it's not about apathy. That's actually perfectionism.
Yeah.
Yeah. So it's more about... It's more about being a parent to yourself, being a mom to yourself, being a coach to yourself, of pushing yourself through because you know you deserve better and there's a different way.
And doing it for what the outcome will be. Over time is really important because I think so much of like maybe even our parents' generation, like that generation ahead of us, Monica, where I'm going to go hard and then I'm going to reward myself with going backwards, right? So I'm going to, you know, tidy, tidy, tidy, tidy my house and then I'm going to do nothing for a week.
And then they end up on this cycle of like binging and like that slothfulness in their home, in their work, in their friendships where it's just like all or nothing, all or nothing. And I would hope that we can kind of evolve from that and learn that like what's the word where you just being consistent. That's it. Is actually the higher value.
And with that, I would say maybe a good word to replace it with, people have a lot of attachments to the word consistency, is actually, how about sustainability?
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