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Chapter 1: What are the arguments for banning social media for under 16s?
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Is there no government in the world that's looking at what the experts are recommending, which is reining in big tech rather than a ban, which actually puts the onus on no one?
Yeah, so there is, and it is a bunch of unelected people called the European Commission. Ironically. So the European Commission earlier this year came out with a couple of rulings that have really shaken the big tech companies. They're really worried about it. So one was TikTok.
It essentially found on a preliminary basis, preliminary ruling that TikTok, that its algorithms addict kids and adults and the algorithms must be changed permanently. Hello and you're welcome to The Big Tech Show with me, Adrian Weckler.
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Chapter 2: How does Ireland's approach to social media regulation differ from the UK's?
Now, the UK says it's going to ban social media for under-16s and that means Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat and YouTube, not WhatsApp, not Signal and not YouTube Kids. And there's a whole anomaly there which we can get into. But we're going to talk about this, about the idea of a social media ban for young teens. It's quite popular in Ireland.
A lot of surveys show that parents in particular and in particular of young kids like the idea of a social media ban on under-16s. And Ireland, in fact, says that it's looking at a ban. Taoiseach Michael Martin, asked by reporters after the News of the UK ban broke, he said that Ireland would look at a ban, but that Ireland prefers to proceed in lockstep with the European Commission.
What Ireland is actually doing is is it hopes to use the digital wallet app, which, by the way, is coming at the end of this year. I'm not sure if you knew that or not. It's going to be something that will be on your phone, like your Android or the wallet on your iPhone that you pull Ticketmaster tickets and things like that on.
And the idea is you're going to be able to put your driver's license and other state ID. And Ireland's idea is to link that with... social media use for age verification. Now, there's all sorts of issues with that. But JJ Clarke is here with me in studio. And JJ, there are a couple of things. What has struck me about this debate
I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm very cognizant of the fact that most experts in this area, and I mean child protection experts, say that bans don't work and they won't work. And I'm just going to quote to you from one or two of them.
So Noleen Blackwell, who is the online safety coordinator of the Children's Rights Alliance, she said this week in response to the UK social ban, she commented that after several months of investigation and testimony on what is needed to be done on the regulation of online platforms and the improvement of safety online in the Oireachtas Committee, Not a single expert witness recommended a ban.
Now, this is the online safety coordinator of the Children's Rights Alliance saying this. She added that there is not sufficient evidence that a ban is going to work. There's another organization called Cyber Safe Kids.
And Alex Cooney, who's the CEO of that organization, said simply designating a shortlist of mainstream platforms, however well intentioned, creates a false sense of security for parents and will not be sufficient to make the online world safer for children. And there's a whole load of other organizations that have effectively echoed that. In other words.
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Chapter 3: What challenges do experts see with enforcing age verification?
Experts in this field say that a social media ban, what they're kind of saying without saying it literally, it's a populist shallow move that makes politicians feel better, but doesn't actually get to the heart of the matter. And the heart of the matter is how do you keep kids safe online if they're going to go on to social media or we're going to try online?
Isn't the better way to try and force the tech companies, the social media companies to change their algorithms, change the recommender systems, change the kind of content that you get automatically if you're a 15 year old kid signing up for Instagram or YouTube or TikTok and without them knowing almost anything else about you within within.
a few minutes, you're starting to see fight videos and you're starting to see graphic content and you're starting to see manosphere related content. And isn't that the way to to actually tackle this? But but that's a much more difficult problem. And politicians like easy problems. Keir Starmer is under a lot of pressure politically in the UK.
So what he has announced is something there's nothing about trying to tackle the content on social media companies. Nothing about getting under the hood, but the algorithms, the things that the social media companies really, really fear.
And I know this because I talk to them and if you look at the amount of money they spend on lobbying in Europe and in the States, what they really, really, really fear is authorities ordering them to change the the structure and the algorithms and the recommender systems and to start to get them to do that. They don't fear a ban at all. In fact, in some ways, a ban helps them.
I'll give you the example of YouTube. So YouTube, weirdly, is one of the services that is on the UK social media ban list for under 16s. Now, it has said that it will exempt YouTube kids. So now we have a scenario where if you are a parent in Ireland or probably the UK, I don't know, but certainly in Ireland.
there is a greater than average chance that in your living room, YouTube is on the telly. So YouTube is mostly now a TV app, particularly in family homes. And it's quite normal for kids, young kids especially, to watch things on YouTube. But now... you're going to have a situation where that pattern isn't going to change.
There's still going to be kids watching YouTube, but they're probably not going to have their own accounts. So it's going to be the parents account which means they might see adult-rated content, and particularly for 14 and 15-year-olds. So if you're 14 or 15, you won't be allowed to have a normal YouTube account. Instead, you will be forced into having a kid's account.
And of course, you're not going to...
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Chapter 4: Why do child safety experts argue that bans may not be effective?
you know, look at YouTube kids when you're 14 or 15. So what you're going to do is you're going to bypass the system as the vast majority of people in Australia have done. This is the Australian eSafety Commissioner did a big piece of research a few months after that country introduced its ban. found that 70% at least of 8 to 15-year-olds were still using social media.
There's zero drop in the issues associated with that, extreme content, bullying, all that sort of stuff. So in the UK, 14 to 15-year-olds will continue using YouTube, but now they'll be using the adult version of YouTube because that's the way, because they don't want to see YouTube kids, but they can't put in their true age, 14 or 15. So now they're going to be seeing adult content
YouTube, which for Google means they get to serve them adult ads. They get to recommend adult content.
Yeah. Which seems incredible. Yeah. And it's more problematic than the original issue. But the idea that is there no government in the world that's looking at what the experts are recommending, which is reigning in big tech rather than a ban, which actually puts the onus on no one.
Yeah. So there is. And it is a bunch of unelected people called the European Commission. Ironically. So the European Commission earlier this year came out with a couple of rulings that have really shaken the big tech companies. They're really worried about it. So one was TikTok.
It essentially found on a preliminary basis, preliminary ruling that TikTok, that its algorithms addict kids and adults and the algorithms must be changed. Now, that's an earthquake for TikTok. And so the ramifications for that, if that preliminary decision is confirmed, which it will be, I think. But if it is, TikTok is going to have to either change its recommender system or leave the EU.
Now, I don't know. Maybe they'll fight it. They probably will fight it. And maybe it will take years. That is the way to deal with it.
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Chapter 5: What role does the European Commission play in regulating social media?
That's the only thing that the tech companies actually feared. So the European Commission is doing something similar with Meta. Another preliminary decision, it found that Meta does not keep, does not successfully keep under 13s off its Facebook and Instagram apps and that it's addicting them. OK, similar recommendations and requirements to change their systems.
Now, that is what they, that's what the big tech companies fear most. We have quite a lot of evidence in Ireland already that bans don't work and very specifically In Ireland, as in most countries, you are not allowed to use social media if you're under 13. You can take it as being the law, if you like.
Now, there's an organization called Cyber Safe Kids, which conducts a poll every year, 9,000 primary and secondary school kids. And every year, it's pretty much the same thing. The majority of kids are using social media apps. Its last survey showed that 71% of eight to 12 year olds were using social media apps like Instagram or TikTok, which have a legal age or a user age of 13.
And it hasn't changed much over the years.
Is the issue there, though, the lack of enforcement rather than bringing in new laws?
This is what I'm getting to. So We actually have a regulator called Commission de Man, the media regulator, and its job is to enforce the rule that under-13s cannot access social media. Now, it has had an online safety code in place for 11 months, more than 11 months, but the enforcement stage has been in place for 11 months. And the enforcement stage is where Commission de Man goes in
and holds tech companies to account for not preventing under 13 year olds to use social media. Now I checked this week, No prosecutions. There's no announcements of any action against social media companies. Even though we know for a fact, because I checked with CyberSafe Kids again, that the figures, they're redoing their survey, the figures essentially haven't changed.
So two thirds of kids between the ages of 8 and 12, and by the way, when you get to 12, it's like something like 75, 80 percent, are using... social media platforms with a minimum age of 13, we actually have a de facto law, a ban on that in Ireland. And in 11 months of enforcement, the regulator that it's appointed to do it has not initiated any enforcement. In other words, the ban does not work.
There are no fewer kids using social media, despite the fact that not only do we have a ban on it, but we also set up
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Chapter 6: How do social media algorithms affect young users?
amid great fanfare, a regulator to enforce that law with an online safety commissioner, an online safety code, and pretty much nothing has been done. Now, just to say, when I use nothing, there's an asterisk with that nothing, because I did want to give Commissioner Mann the opportunity to come back and respond to that. I told them that this is something that we would be talking about.
And they did come back to me to say, But they are part of an EU-wide coordinated action regarding pornographic content on smaller platforms. And the person I was talking to in Commission Man also said that Commission Man, as vice chair of a working group on the protection of minors within the European Board of Digital Services, quote, played a central role in crafting rules.
around how to keep kids safe and secure online. Spokesperson also said that Commissioner Nauman issued a request for information to the X platform seeking explanation about the measures they've taken to comply with the code and that they're currently assessing all the services for their compliance with the online safety code and will take any further supervised action.
So it's not accurate to say that they've done nothing. So it's not that they've done nothing. I am simply pointing out that in Ireland, we have a ban on under 13s using social media platform. And it is not observed. And not only is it not observed, but to date, and I can only say to date, maybe next month there'll be some big announcement, but to date...
There has been no enforcement against social media companies against under 13s. Now, why on earth do we think that we brought in a law for under 16s? I mean, the evidence clearly is there that parents are allowing under 13s use some social media services. That evidence is absolutely in front of our eyes.
Do we really think that if they're going to let a 12-year-old or an 11-year-old use Instagram or TikTok or Snapchat, that they're not going to let a 14- or a 15-year-old? Or that they might, they'll have even have any say in the matter with a 15-year-old?
But there's such a hard line there because you mentioned Michal Martin's comments and, oh, I'll just sit in it, we'll sit on our hands and wait for an EU-wide decision on it. Shouldn't we, as, you know, a country where all of the tech companies are headquartered lead the way in some sort of move, obviously following the expert's advice.
But I mean, you could throw that, turn the argument on its head and say that because we are the country where all the tech companies are headquartered, doesn't that make us slower to enforce? Because we're afraid, is it? Because it's a commercial interest, because it's a major industrial interest. Now, I happen not really to fully believe that.
You will talk to people who will say, well, of course they're not going to do anything because, you know, Meta and Google and TikTok employ so many people there. I don't really believe that. It is true to say that Ireland has never been one of the more hawkish countries in banning things and banning social media in Europe.
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Chapter 7: What evidence exists regarding the effectiveness of social media bans?
There are other countries that have gone out ahead of us. I would say we're also not in the first wave. I mean, the Brits are clearly now have entered the first wave of it. But to me, that smacks a little bit like desperation. And it also lets the tech companies off the hook, in my opinion.
I think the Brits know, Keir Starmer knows that a social media ban doesn't really annoy the tech companies because the Brits are really trying to get the tech companies in. I think they know that that doesn't annoy the tech companies. I think that what annoys the tech companies is what the European Commission is doing.
And sometimes you hear this metaphor used, I just want to bring this point up, because you will hear this analogy used of social media being like tobacco or alcohol. Yeah, the smoking analogy, yeah. Yeah, the smoking analogy. And that analogy is... intended as a slam dunk argument as to why social media should be banned. And in fact, it has the opposite effect.
And the reason it has the opposite effect is it presents social media like alcohol and tobacco as inevitable vices of the world. That will be there forever. That's a good point. And, you know, cannot be changed. But what we can do is just stop kids using them. And it is the ultimate let off. for tech companies. It's the ultimate let off for social media companies.
If I'm a lobbyist or a strategist in meta, in Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, I'm thinking, please keep comparing it to alcohol and tobacco because then you'll just pass a simple law, populist law, banning it and you won't touch the rest of it.
Yeah, and it's implying, like you said, that it's the furniture, like that social media platforms will be there forever. Also, I think usage patterns for social media, for phone use are set in these sort of formative periods of your life. And then when they get to 18, they say, well, your business has to have a social media presence. So it's like, well, smoking is good now.
Do you know, so it breaks down, that analogy breaks down, you know, when you widen it out.
Yeah, and it just, it gets rid of the moral responsibility to do something more. Because when you talk about kids, I mean...
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Chapter 8: What are the proposed solutions for safer online environments for children?
social media misuse and overuse and misinformation and extreme content and all that. That's, you know, it's as bad for adults as it is for kids.
Yeah. Like, I mean, you know, I'm a producer on a technology podcast and I struggle to put my phone down sometimes because of how addictive Instagram is.
Yeah.
I say, oh, I'll watch two videos 10 minutes later. I'm like, what am I doing?
And the fact that you have very limited control over that algorithm is something that the tech companies are happy about. European Commission wants to change. And the UK government and maybe the Irish government as well, I don't know, think, oh, well, you know, that's tech stuff that we don't want to get involved. That's inevitable. That's just like human nature.
We can't really touch that, but we can ban it for kids.
Yeah. I mean, even... if you look at the long term and you say, what are the sort of, what does success look like? Like lower screen time, better mental health, you know, outcomes. Do we actually have a metric for that?
No. A better outcome means more control over your social media, your social media algorithms, your recommenders, more control over not being sucked in and addicted and more control over the quality of content that you have, where the primacy is how much you want to use it and not how much they want you to use it. Okay. That to me is the desired outcome here.
And we're going to be talking more during the year about this idea of the digital wallet being used to regulate your access to social media. That's the Irish plan. The Irish plan is that the wallet, your official ID, because your digital wallet is going to be your passport or your driver's license or something like that. It's your official state ID.
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