Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
A Listener Production. Hi, Natasha Belling with you and welcome to the afternoon edition of The Briefing. Coming up in our deep dive, another sensational chapter in the Carl and Jackie O controversy. Lawyers for both radio stars have headed to the federal court today with more bombshell allegations.
We'll chat with the top employment lawyer for all the latest and find out whether the pair will ever return on air.
Chapter 2: What are the latest headlines affecting the tech industry?
But first, let's check the afternoon headlines this Friday, the 24th of April. The US president has announced a three-week ceasefire between Lebanon and Israel. President Trump making the announcement via a truth social post which he put on his social media website shortly after a meeting at the White House with diplomats from both countries.
Meantime, President Trump has also told a journalist, quote, don't rush me on making a deal with Iran. During a news conference, the reporter was asking the US president how long he was willing to wait for a response from Iran. And the president had this to say.
Don't rush me, Jeff. You know, guys like you, you want to say, oh, so we're in Vietnam like for 18 years. We're in Iraq for many, many years. We're in for all the, I don't like to say World War II because that was a big heat. But we were four and a half, almost five years in World War II. We were in the Korean War for seven years. I've been doing this for six weeks.
Meantime, CNN had a report earlier today that the US military is developing plans to target Iran's capabilities in the Strait of Hormuz, the shipping laneway that has become the focal point of naval blockades since the ceasefire was announced just over two weeks ago.
A US soldier has been charged after he made hundreds of thousands of dollars on a betting market by allegedly using secret information about the planned capture of Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro. The soldier was involved in the planning and execution of the mission to snatch the leader from Venezuela, which was carried out in early January.
In December, the soldier opened an account on Polymarket and made a long-shot bet of US$32,000 that Maduro would be out soon. When he was captured, the soldier then made around US$400,000 in profits or around Australian dollars. The soldier will face five criminal charges for stealing and misusing confidential government information, theft and fraud.
Ben Robert Smith has confirmed that he will be taking part in Anzac Day commemorations over the weekend.
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Chapter 3: What happened in court regarding the Kyle and Jackie O controversy?
The decorated soldier has been charged with five counts of the war crime of murder. Robert Smith has denied any wrongdoing. It's been a week since Ben Robert Smith was released from bail and he says that he'll attend Anzac Day services to pay his respects.
MUSIC
More massive job cuts from the tech giants today. Meta, the company behind Facebook and Instagram has announced it will be laying off around 8,000 employees, which is around 10% of its workforce. The company will also end hiring efforts for around 6,000 open roles. At the same time, Microsoft has also offered early retirement to around 7,000 employees or around 7% of its workforce.
The layoffs across the tech industry have come as the big companies are redirecting their spending towards artificial intelligence. And staying with tech, Spotify has announced it's turning 20. It's safe to say that the music streaming platform has transformed the way many of us listen to music. To celebrate, the platform has revealed the top streamed artist on the platform of all time.
Coming in at number three was Drake, then Bad Bunny, and in the number one spot of all time... Taylor Swift. They've also released the most streamed songs on Spotify to mark the birthday milestone. The number one track went to The Weeknd with Blinding Lights. Now it's time to get into our deep dive on today's latest developments in the Kyle and Jackie O controversy.
Today, both their legal claims against ARN were heard in the federal court. Kyle Sanderlands appeared in person. Jackie O didn't. The former king of Australian radio had this to say outside court.
I'm just happy to get into the court and get the truth out. Kyle, how ugly is this going to get?
Well, I don't... It's pretty ugly now. What's your message to ARN?
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of the legal suits filed by Kyle and Jackie O?
Put me back on the radio and let's get the share price back up.
Have you spoken to Jackie? No, sir, no, no. I haven't spoken to Jackie. I haven't spoken to any of her people. Well, if you know how these procedures work, there's strategy and then there's truth. And once we get inside and we get all the answers out and the truth will raise its head. Can you work with your old boss again? Oh, yeah, I can work with anyone. It's the media business.
One day you hate someone, the next day they're your best friend.
Joining us to unpack all of today's developments and what it means for Carl, Jackie O and ARN is workplace relations lawyer Michael Burns. Michael, thanks for joining us. Another sensational chapter in the Kyle and Jackie O controversy.
Today, we understand both Kyle and Jackie O went to the federal court with their separate legal cases against ARN, but a decision was made by the judge to hear their cases in October, correct?
That's correct, Tash. The matter's now set down 12 to 23 October for 10 days. And it looks like, the judge hasn't made a final decision on this, but it looks like the two cases are going to be heard together, either concurrently or consecutively, but in effect as one big case. So they've brought separate matters, but it looks like it's going to be heard as one big case in October.
Why couldn't the cases be heard earlier?
Well, there's a lot involved, Tash. I know Kyle's lawyers wanted the case heard in June. Indeed, the matter up to today had been, or at least Kyle's matter, had been tentatively set down for 22 to 26 June, but there's so much work involved The pleadings still haven't closed, so that has to be done. Evidence has to be prepared.
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Chapter 5: How did Kyle and Jackie O's relationship influence their legal battles?
There's documents go back and forth. So a case of this magnitude, in fact, usually would not be heard for a year or so. So they're actually getting on relatively quickly. But of course, Carl's lawyers wanted it heard as soon as possible. Because of the remedy he's seeking, he in effect wants specific performance. He wants to be reinstated and back on the air.
And so every day that passes, that argument gets weaker, that becomes more difficult. So they wanted it on earlier in June. October though, still pretty fast for a case of this size and complexity.
Michael, so before we get to what unfolded in this court appearance today, let's take us back to exactly how this all unfolded.
Yes, so it arose from an exchange between Kyle and Jackie O on 20 February, where Kyle was highly critical of Jackie. Jackie was deeply upset and distressed about that. She had a visceral reaction to that. She then was off the air.
didn't return to air and she, on 26 February, wrote a letter to ARN which said she could no longer continue working with Mr. Kyle Sanderlands and that working together had become untenable. She, in fact, asked ARN to allocate to her a different show, not a breakfast show, not working with Kyle, something else on the network.
What ARN did was that they took that letter and said that Jackie had repudiated her contract, her services contract. They terminated the services contract. Then they suspended Kyle because Kyle had been on the air from 20 February to 3 March. They sent him a letter saying, saying you've engaged in serious misconduct.
We're alleging you've engaged in serious misconduct and also you've breached the contract. We need you to remedy the breach. Wasn't clear how he was going to remedy that breach and you've got 14 days to do it. He was taken off the air.
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Chapter 6: What are the allegations made by ARN against Kyle and Jackie O?
14 days later, his contract was terminated. And then both Kyle and Jackie O separately have, through their service entities that were contracted to ARN, brought legal proceedings. There are different bases for their claims. Kyle is saying it's a breach of his contract. Well, in fact, what he's saying is the contract was never even validly terminated and he should be reinstated on the air.
So that's his case. Jackie's case is that ARN did not have a proper basis to terminate her contract. She didn't repudiate her contract. She was simply looking for an alternative show as contemplated by her contract. She also alleges that ARN have engaged in breaches of the Fair Work Act. and also breaches of Australian consumer law arising from misrepresentations in a statement to the market.
So there's a lot involved there, Tash, but that's the story so far. ARN this week filed their defences to both claims ahead of the case management hearing in both matters today. They are separate matters, but the court has combined them at this stage and it does look like they're going to be heard together.
Let's just quickly talk about the ARN documents that were part of their defence. Now we've got another insight. These are again bombshell allegations and bombshell documents. Take us through what ARN is alleging because in another twist to this controversy, they've now counter sued both Kyle and Jackie O.
Yes, so let me deal with the counterclaim first. They are suing both Jackie O, or Jackie Henderson, and Kyle. And so what ARN is saying is that both of them are in breach of the services agreements. And if you breach a contract, as you know, you're liable for damages.
And so ARN is saying, Kyle and Jackie O owe us the profits, the revenues, the amounts we would have earned over the life of the contract, which the remaining period or duration of the contract is about eight and a half years, eight and three quarter years, something like that. So they owe us for the profits we would have made, the revenue we would have made, over that period.
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Chapter 7: What arguments are presented by Kyle's legal team in court?
So that's the cross-claim. In terms of the defence, for Kyle's matter, and there's been a lot of talk about this, they're saying that Kyle engaged in a course of misconduct. And that was primarily in the way that he was treating Jackie. Firstly, on February 20, that particular exchange, and then previous exchanges about which Jackie had complained in August and September.
They also say in their defence that Kyle should not be reinstated. That should not be a remedy on the table for Kyle because of conduct engaged in by Kyle in relation to management. So he used a range of derogatory slurs and comments about management, on air and about others as well. And it is said that he really can't be, if you reinstated him, how could we manage him?
How could management manage him appropriately and properly? And so that counts against an order for specific performance or reinstatement. But their primary defense is he engaged in serious misconduct. such as to warrant termination of the contract. Kyle, of course, rejects that proposition.
And as part of Kyle's defence or position in relation to that, there was a nice expression used today, Tash, in court, which was, if you buy Kyle, you get Kyle. So what they're basically saying is, he's no saint, he's no angel, he's not going to be winning the Nobel Peace Prize anytime soon.
But ARN knew what they were getting and they promoted it and they monetised it and they now can't turn around and say, well, this is serious misconduct when this is really what Kiles Camp says they bought into, ARN bought into.
So interesting you mentioned that, Michael, because I was just about to ask you about that quote. So that quote came from Sunderland's barrister, Scott Robinson, who is an SC.
Senior counsel, very eminent.
Yeah. So what you said is the fact that if you buy Kyle, you get Kyle. Now, interestingly, Scott did say... that his client's conduct may not have been pleasant, ARN Media knew exactly what it was getting and took responsibility for his remarks in a specially customised contract. You're an expert in this field.
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Chapter 8: What is the potential financial impact of the legal disputes?
To what degree were the specifics in their contracts coming to play with this case, both of these cases?
It's front and centre in both cases, in my view. Certainly on Kyle's side, they are making a big point or a big virtue of his particular contract. Because bear in mind, even though this involves an individual and personal services, they weren't, neither Kyle nor Jackie O were employees of ARN.
And Kyle provided his services through a company called Quasar Media, pursuant to a, seems highly negotiated, very carefully constructed and put together services agreement. And so what Kyle's barrister was in effect saying was you need to look at his conduct which some people might be appalled by. Certainly isn't the sort of conduct a teacher in a school or your mother might condone.
But you need to look at this conduct through the prism of this particular contract. A contract... which talked about Kyle having a robust character and presenting an entertaining show of a particular style, which is specifically acknowledged in the contract. So what might ordinarily in the workplace constitute serious misconduct or constitute conduct which would rightly be reprimanded.
You know, if I conducted myself in this office today, I would certainly be reprimanded for some of the things that Kyle has said on air. And that's understood, I think, by Kyle's camp. What they're saying is you need to look at what he has said and done in the context of this particular contract and what ARN acknowledged Kyle brings to the table and that Kyle does
by virtue of the terms of this contract, can't be disciplined or terminated, have that contract terminated because he engaged in that conduct which was contemplated by the terms of this contract. There's also talk of an indemnity that he had in the contract related to things that were said and ultimately broadcast on air.
So what the barrister says, you need to look at all of this through the prism of the contract. The fact that it's not... necessarily in laudable conduct or laudable behaviour or even respectful or the way in which ordinary employees might conduct themselves in the workplace, doesn't matter.
You need to look at it through the prism of this commercial contract, specially negotiated, specially put together for Kyle. And with Jackie O, the main argument there, the main issue in dispute is whether Jackie repudiated her contract. And the argument from ARN there is that Jackie said she could no longer work with Kyle and that their relationship working together had become untenable.
And in those circumstances, ARN had a right to, that Jackie, in saying that, had repudiated the contract and they therefore had a right to terminate the contract. Whereas Jackie's position is, yes, I said those things, but the contract contemplates me doing other shows, other programs.
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