Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show the campaign manager for Barack Obama in 2008 and then advisor to Kamala Harris's campaign in 2024. It is David Plouffe, who's here for the first time. I don't know why. Huge oversight. How you doing, man?
It's always good to be with you, Mr. Miller. Thanks for having me.
Welcome, man. Yeah, this will be much better than being in the MS Now boxes together.
No doubt. We can actually talk. It's good. Yes.
I want to start. You had a kind of a buzzy op-ed in the New York Times last week about how while things went good last November for the Democrats, there's still big changes the party's got to make. I want to get to that, of course. But, you know, the president is forcing us to talk about some other things, his delusions and manias instead. So we'll start there. The world is gathered in Davos.
Have you ever been to Davos? Never, thankfully. Really? Yeah. That is surprising. I had you pegged as a Davos fan.
No, no. I've had to support people going to Davos, but I personally have never been to Davos, which I'm quite thankful for.
Yeah, same. I don't get it. It looks chilly. They're all in their Montclair jackets. I don't know. It's just not really for me.
Yeah, right. Yeah, tough.
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Chapter 2: What are the current challenges facing the Democratic Party?
It was when they came to the Oval Office to meet him about Ukraine, but it's Photoshopped to make it seem like he's telling them that we're taking over Greenland. He has attacked the United Kingdom for, quote, planning to give away the island of Diego Garcia, which houses a UK-US military base there. There was an agreement to give that back to Mauritius.
Earlier, actually, you'd be surprised to learn the Trump administration said they were on board with that because it secured a long-term stable and effective operation. Now Trump says the UK is stupid for doing that. He leaked some texts from the head of NATO in France. Mark Ruda called him Dear Donald. Macron asked him to have dinner in Paris. Both complimented him on his work in Syria.
I don't know, man. It's a little different than kind of how your old boss handled this stuff. But what is your big picture reactions on what we're seeing?
You know, Tim, you'd always like to laugh at this stuff. But, you know, this is an incredibly serious moment. So first of all, you know, here's a guy whose popularity rating, you know, has really plummeted, you know. Low 40s, high 30s, people unhappy with the economy. So first of all, politically, there's maybe, you know, 10 people in the country who think this is important.
They all have dinner at Mar-a-Lago every weekend or would support this. So there's a priority question. He's obviously it's incredibly dangerous because of what it would do to our alliances. I mean, this would shred our alliances. It would shred NATO. And I think we have to understand a lot of this is about his ego.
But at the end of the day, I think he'd be comfortable having he and Putin and she just carve up the world. And all three of us are astride stuff, no matter the price that gets paid. So I think Democrats should make him pay a price for this, which is he's now threatening higher tariffs, which means higher prices for Americans. To steal Greenland, which nobody in America really supports.
That's going to do nothing but harm our economy and for our alliances. Like we ought to just pound that away because it's not a stray issue. It's very much connected to a president who's not focused on the things and is even making it worse. The thing people most are concerned about, which is prices and the economy. But it's it's really scary. And there's no guardrails around this guy.
Unlike the first term, there's nobody around to check his worst impulses. You can see the deterioration. And at the end of the day, we know this from the studies of Trump going back to the 70s. You know, the most important principle for him taught by Ray Cohn is never back down, never apologize.
So the thing that scares me most on this Greenland thing is I'm not sure that I see an off ramp right now. And I think that's where a lot of the substantive work has to go, which is what is the off ramp? And at the end of the day, there's going to be no purchase here. So that's ridiculous. This would require, I think, military forces to execute what he wants.
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Chapter 3: How is the Democratic Party's brand perceived by voters?
Well, listen, it's a great question. I mean, when you when you work in the White House, you get to see psychological profiles that are developed for world leaders. Trump's psychological profile is like literally a sentence long, which is just flatter the guy and you'll get what you want.
So on the one hand, whether you're a business leader, we've seen this a lot in Silicon Valley, you're a world leader. You know, you bend the knee, you say some things nice publicly. And, you know, he is like a dog. He rolls over. His belly's been rubbed. He's happy. I think this is probably a situation where that's not going to work.
I probably tend to agree more with the Newsom view on this, which is I think these world leaders need to talk about the economic pain this will cause to Americans. I think they need to talk about the fact that if there is kinetic action, it's not going to be free throws. There's going to be think about that. There's going to be war.
between soldiers from the UK and from Denmark and from France and Germany with the US. Like that image I don't think is yet sunk in for the American people. So this is wildly unpopular. It'll get more unpopular when people think I'm gonna pay an economic price and American soldiers are gonna go to war with their allies.
So I think you need to paint the picture of what could actually happen here in a very aggressive way. Now, at the same time behind closed doors, you're thinking maniacally about what is an off-ramp That could prevent the worst. One does not seem apparent to me right now because the concessions here and the surrender all need to come from Trump. He's the one misbehaving.
This isn't once like, OK, you throw a tantrum tantrum and somehow you kind of get half of what you want. There is nothing here. We already have security arrangements with Denmark. We obviously already have a great relationship. You know, Trump talks about Iron Dome. I don't even think he really understands what he's talking about there. Is there an elegant off ramp? I don't know if there is one.
But rhetorically, I'd like to see European leaders begin to paint a picture of if Trump doesn't stop this, this is where this is headed. And I think that domestically here in the U.S. will get people's attention even more than it already is.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's obviously the right move domestically. This is more in your wheelhouse now. I actually don't know what your day job is these days. Are you doing CEO advising anymore? Is that in your remit? Yeah, so one of these guys calls you. I don't know, like Bill Kristol, I think, tweeted this yesterday. He's like, well, not one of these CEOs tell him to fuck off.
And I do wonder, like... he does back down and he is a bully in that sense, right? Like the, the, the character analysis that you painted of him, right. If somebody who responds to flattery, like that's true, but he also does respond to, to a little bit of a sock in the nose. To me, I have like PTSD from that 2016 primary. I'm working for Jeb.
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Chapter 4: What strategies should Democrats adopt to win elections?
So I think the more this is put in an economic frame by those who have concerns, the better in an economic frame vis-a-vis the American people. And if he's hearing that from business leaders who are concerned about what it's going to mean in the near or medium term, I think that'd be helpful.
You piqued my interest when you said when you were in the White House, you were getting personality profiles of the other leaders. Are there any interesting ones you remember? Berlusconi? Do you have any details that you can share?
I'm not going to share any details.
Any current leaders?
Suffice it to say the Putin one is dramatic reading, yes.
That's got to be kind of fun. Well, what's the most fun thing that you got to read that you wouldn't have expected to when you were in there?
For me, it was really when I was there, it was we were coming out of the financial crisis. So it was any kind of documentation that we're actually coming out of it that the economy is beginning to heal. Those are the things you like to read because for a long time we got the opposite.
But, you know, when you work in the White House and you have clearance, obviously it's a window into the world and it can be both inspiring but also quite frightening in terms of what's going on on a day-to-day basis.
All right, guys, this wallet sponsor, we got Ridge. I just have to admit, it's important. Radical candor, as you know, is the keystone of this podcast. And at first I was like, I don't know about this Ridge wallet. Looks a little mask for me. Looks a little bit like something that, I don't know, a Ukrainian soldier would be carrying into battle. And that's for some people.
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Chapter 5: How can Democrats hold Republicans accountable for their actions?
who are paying taxes. We need to have a pathway towards legalization. So to me, this opens up the ability to have some of these discussions. But when you see Minnesota, the J.D. Vance's of the world, the Donald Trump's of the world, certainly the gnomes and homens of the world, they want to lean into this. They want the fight.
I mean, they're calling an American citizen, a mother who was just exercising her constitutional right, a terrorist. And so that will continue to happen. Who they killed. Who they killed all over the country. And I think there's a bigger point here, which is they want us all to be silenced. That's what they desire. That's what autocrats desire. They then build a system to ensure that's the case.
And when Trump jokes about there shouldn't be an election, I think we're going to have an election. But it's not a one-off. That's what he believes. I think they'd be perfectly comfortable with a country where Donald gives it off to Don Jr., who then gives it off to Ivanka, who then gives it off to J.D. Vance. It's crazy. But they'd be fine with that.
By the way, that 40% of the country would say, should we have a system that's essentially – monarchy slash autocracy and 40% of the country would say yes. So that's the other thing that's scary about this is even though I think 75 to 80% of the people now have witnessed the video and that is important because whatever JD Vance says is immaterial because people have seen it for themselves.
They've come to their same conclusion. We still have a healthy percent of the people in the country who think what's happening up there is okay.
Yeah. Like 30% saw the video and were like, that's good.
And they drive Republican politics. As you know, they drive Republican politics.
I want to play, there's this video of Obama that's been going around for him talking about immigration. It feels like this is one of those, the past is a foreign country type videos. When you listen to him talk about it, I just want to play it for the audience.
This is not going to be a free ride. It's not going to be some instant amnesty. What's going to happen is you are going to pay a significant fine. You are going to learn English. You are going to...
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Chapter 6: What role does AI play in political strategies?
I feel like it's like the worst of both worlds. And I feel like can we not combine, you know, that totally rational immigration policy that had whoops and yes and cheers from a Democratic audience? Yeah. 20 years ago, Wes, can we not combine that set of policies Obama laid out with like righteous anger about what ICE is doing internally and saying, we take off your fucking masks.
We are, you know, we will investigate people that do crimes. You cannot kill women, right? Like it feels like you can do both and you can, maybe they need to do both.
Well, I think, Tim, it's a great point. I think this is the way Democrats can finally get out of the hole on immigration and get on their front foot. So, first of all, you mentioned something interesting. That was a long time ago, but historically not that long ago. And those comments, I believe, were in Iowa or South Carolina. It was during the Democratic primary.
I mean, I remember in 2007, 2008, in some of the early primary states, you'd get really challenging questions on immigration from Democratic caucus goers. So this wasn't appealing to right-of-center swing voters in the state of Indiana that we're trying to win. Right. And I think not much has changed, which is we need a secure border.
We need to obviously make sure to the extent we have enforcement, it should be focused on those who could or have committed violent felonies who are here illegally. But the rest of Obama's point is where most of America is. They still want the ability for people who are working hard, contributing their community to have a pathway. So.
Now, with what's happening in Minnesota, not just in Minnesota, I mean, first of all, ICE is an economic issue. You remember Iraq back in the 2000s became as much an economic issue as a foreign policy issue. Voters said, hey, why are we spending all this time and money and attention in Iraq, not rebuilding my community here in my home? We're spending all this money on ICE.
By the way, a Democrat could say we should actually be funding more police jobs to keep our community safe, not ICE. So I think you're exactly right. I think a Democrat who says, let me tell you something, I believe in a secure border. We got that wrong under the Biden administration. So it's one thing Trump's done well. I think there's some things we could change.
We're going to have a secure border. We're going to use technology. We're going to make sure that continues. But we're also now not going to terrorize our fellow citizens, not use the power of the state to terrorize fellow citizens. We're not throwing teachers and gardeners and housekeepers who have been here for 20 or 30 years out, treating them violently. There is an audience for that.
To me, that is probably not even a 70-30 issue. It might be an 80-20, 85-15 issue. So yeah, and I think part of it, Tim, is over the last 10 years, Democrats, for the most part, I don't want to... you know, maybe paint too broad a brush. They've been scared of this issue. Right.
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Chapter 7: How should Democrats address economic concerns among voters?
So say Trump wants them to have more money. I don't want them to have more money. They got plenty of money. In fact, I think they have too much money, but they certainly don't need more money. But here's what we should be investing in. It's actually not that complicated, I think, if you frame it in that way. So I'd have to fight.
That's smart. I'm not going to keep complimenting you. We might have a couple of disagreements coming. But that one was smart. All right, y'all. I've been traveling a lot recently and thinking about all the different luggage options out there. Almost picked up the wrong person's luggage out of the overhead bin the other day. So, you know, you got to be mindful of that.
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After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them the Bulwark sent you. All right, let's go to your op-ed. We'll stick with the agreements because the premise of the op-ed is something that I am passionately in agreement with you on. And then I think that is just under accepted and recognized still in democratic world.
And basically, the gist of it is that had a good year last November, but the party is still in crisis. And I think the nut graph or the nut statement of this was right now, Democrats have no credible path to sustain control of the Senate and the White House. And
The Democrats need to come up with a way to have sustained control of the Senate and the White House if we're going to brush back this authoritarian movement in the Republican Party. So talk about that.
Right. So to me, we'll talk about the specifics, but I did this largely because I thought the spirit was more important than even the specifics. The spirit is we're in deep trouble. And, you know, I think for the good of the country and the world, we need sustained control of the White House and Senate for most of the next decade. You know, you know this.
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Chapter 8: What lessons can the Democratic Party learn from past elections?
We actually have to win most of the elections going forward here. You know, I would say at least eight years, maybe 12 years, control the White House from 28 through 36 or 40 and control the Senate, the latter being really hard. We have to get competitive in more places, which means voters have to say this candidate seems a lot different, whether it's their how they talk about government.
They talk about jobs. They talk about corruption. They talk about their own party. Like I think that the way I think about it is. I always always think it's helpful. This is a very analog thing. But, you know, a candidate running for House or Senate this year or in the presidential campaign in 28. How's the crowd reacting? Hundred people in Georgia or New Hampshire or Nevada.
Are they nodding their head? And if a candidate who says, listen, Donald Trump has been damaging to this country. The MAGA Republicans who followed him have been. But our institutions have damaged the country. My own party has been complicit. That candidate will have people nodding their head. People will be leaning and I want to hear more. I want to hear more.
And so that's my point, which is we have to understand the scale of the challenge here, the mission. Democrats are called now to sustain them, to win elections much more than we have recently. and in places that we haven't been able to win recently. And in order to do that, we have to fundamentally change our offering to the American people in my view.
During the Obama era, Democrats won, either Obama himself or Democratic Senate candidates in Iowa, Indiana, Montana, West Virginia, Arkansas. With maybe the exception of Mary Peltola in Alaska, I don't see a single Democrat running in 2026 in any of those states who has a meaningfully differentiated brand from the Clinton, Biden, Harris party. I just don't.
They all seem to be some version of that. And those candidates weren't competitive in any of those places. Right. People get wrapped up in, does that mean doing it in a Bernie style or in a Manchin style or whatever? But to me, the frustrating part is that I agree with your premise.
And it doesn't feel to me like there are very many people out there saying, no, we need to do something really different, particularly to win in those places, particularly when talking about the Senate.
You see a few.
Yeah.
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