Chapter 1: Why can't the public trust the DOJ under Trump?
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Chapter 2: What are the implications of Comey's indictment?
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A quick scheduling note tomorrow. We're going to do something a little different. We're going to be live with one of your favorites at 3 p.m. in the East on Substack and YouTube. And so as a result of that, for the audio-only listeners, Pod might come out a little late. But if you're desperate to...
have me on your usual four o'clock dog walk or whatever, come hang out live on Substack or YouTube and we're going to have a good time and look forward to seeing some of y'all there. Up next, I'm super excited for our guest today because I'm pissed at these guys. I'm fucking pissed at these guys. And they're coming at him over the stupidest thing imaginable.
And he is a better man than I. And he's in the middle of two indictments. So there's some limitations where he can talk about.
Chapter 3: How is the current FBI leadership affecting national security?
But man, I do think that we're going to have... A lot of other interesting material to mine in addition to his case. And so I'm so happy to welcome back to the show the former director of the FBI from 2013 to 2017. He was also a federal prosecutor in New York. He also has got a new legal thriller. The latest installment in the series is out today. It's called Red Verdict.
And this time his protagonist, Nora Carlton, is looking into some Russian counterintelligence. That's interesting. We're going to talk about that in a second, but there's some other news going on with you, I think. I've read that. I've read that, yeah. Thanks for having me on, too. Love to. I watched you with Nicole Wallace, so I'm aware that, you know, you can't talk about an ongoing case.
Chapter 4: What are the dangers of politicizing the DOJ?
So we're aligned on that. And I do have to admit that Nicole really kind of mogged me by telling you at the start that she finished your book. before the interview. I cannot say that. I cannot say the same. So kudos to Nicole. Appreciate your candor. Radical candor is important on a podcast.
I want to ask this about the case, which is not any specifics about your defense, but just when you heard about it, when you heard that they were indicting a second time over the shells, I'm wondering like what your emotions were, what the reaction was. Is there a sense of fear, annoyance or, Were you laughing at them because of the absurdity, resolve?
Talk to me about the interior life of Jim Comey.
Resignation because I had heard noise from different media sources that made inquiries of my lawyers, so I knew something was cooking. And so I expected something. If not this, I thought it would be something else.
Chapter 5: How does Comey view the treatment of whistleblowers?
So resignation, a little bit of surprise that is really going to happen. We're really going to do this. But those are my two reactions.
Your video, in response to it, focused on... Kind of in spite of that, in spite of like the surprise about the absurdity and the frustration, like the importance of fighting back against it. And I'm wondering, like, you know, there's kind of the interior Jim Comey and like what you feel like you want people to know.
And I'm wondering kind of where your mind is on that now, you know, a few days, weeks afterwards.
Yeah. I think it's really important that people not become numb to this, not accept this as just another one of those Trumpian excesses we have to deal with. This is really, really bad. And the danger, even for me, is it happens enough times that it becomes a little bit of background noise. Oh, oh, Comey was indicted again.
Everybody assumes that there's nothing to it, whatever it is, but we sort of move past it, and it's really important that we don't. And so I can't talk about a particular case, but I can, and I hope everybody else does, talk about the danger inherent in accepting that that's how the Department of Justice should work.
I hear you on the not being numb.
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Chapter 6: What does Comey think about the future of accountability?
And I feel that, and it's important. And obviously, we think about that a lot at The Bulwark, how to kind of talk about it in stark terms and take it seriously. I also have the personal impulse, though, to want to point and laugh at them. I mean, it is serious business, obviously. I mean, you have a team of lawyers. You're under indictment. It's not a joke. But it also kind of is a joke.
I don't know. I mean, is there a sense of value at mocking, do you think? Or is that the wrong impulse?
Yeah, maybe. I mean, I'm a bit of a mocker, and so I'm attracted to that approach to things. But in this case, because I have such respect for both the concept and the reality of an independent judiciary, I want to make sure that judges know – then I take it seriously because I take their role so seriously.
Chapter 7: What role does counterintelligence play in national security?
So I worry that if I try to be funny with it, John Stewart wanted me to come on his program. One of the reasons I didn't was I don't want to joke about it because I don't want to send a message that we misunderstood as somehow disrespecting the process.
So you're not going to go along with me and my idea that the Gen Alpha kind of replaced 6-7 with 8-6-4-7? Like you don't think that's a good idea?
I'll let you handle that one. I'm not on it.
It's just an idea. I'm just spitballing. I'm just throwing it out there. It's like 8-6-4-7. Do it with a little zhuzh on it. I get it, though. One last joking question. You've been in a lot of investigations, so I guess it's maybe not a joke. You're a prosecutor.
Chapter 8: What insights does Comey offer about his new book, Red Verdict?
You're at the FBI. Everything came across your desk. Was there ever a seashell case before? Is that something that you ever encountered? A case where seashells played the key evidentiary role?
No, this is my first experience with a sheesh. It's not easy to say. A seashell prosecution.
How did that thing go that you said as a kid? Seashells on the seashore? There's something like that. Right. Sally sells seashells on the seashore. Seashore. Yeah. Sally never got indicted. I don't believe Sally was ever indicted. Yeah. All right.
Well, I think that maybe a good way to talk about this then with the context of my state of view on this podcast a million times, this is a ridiculous prosecution of you. I guess one more thing with this is that even Jonathan Turley said it's ridiculous. I mean, he's been a huge defender of the Trump in like every absurd thing Trump said legally.
You said on the cold show that made you a little nervous that Turley came to your defense. And so I was just wondering why. Why does that make you nervous? Is it just kind of like when Megyn Kelly retweets me, that makes me a little nervous that my take is off? Is it just that sort of nervousness? That's probably exactly what it is.
It's like you wonder, am I asleep? Am I having a Jonathan Turley dream or something? Or a Megyn Kelly dream?
Yeah. She retweeted my take on the Iran war this morning, and I was like, hmm. That's concerning. So I guess maybe we contextualize it in a way by talking about like what else they're doing in some of the other cases. You know, for example, there's one in particular that really grinds my gears.
And that is there's a report that starting in April 2026, Department of Justice Civil Rights Division is investigating former White House aide Cassidy Hutchison. for a potential perjury regarding a 2022 testimony. It's kind of news to me. This administration is so, you know, minding their P's and Q's on not lying in testimony before Congress.
I think that'd be news to some of the administration officials. But, you know, in this case, Not to minimize your ability, you know, how annoying it is for you to get lawyers and the impact of your family, which we discussed last time you're on. I know that's very serious, but Cassidy Hutchinson was like a young assistant.
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