Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Hey guys, quick scheduling note on what's been up with the podcast. So you got two podcasts yesterday. So in case you're one of those who, you know, wakes up in the morning, it does this on the morning commute, just goes to the most recent show. I taped Amanda Carpenter yesterday morning and then Olivia Nuzzi yesterday afternoon.
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Chapter 2: Why has Trump stopped holding rallies?
So don't miss out on all caps Amanda yesterday. That podcast was excellent. The Nuzzi podcast. We had some mixed views on the Olivia Nuzzi podcast. You'll be surprised to hear that. And I'm going to have some more extended thoughts on that over on the next level. But the reason why we did that bonus podcast style, understand folks' views on it. But, you know...
When you have somebody that can personally testify to the horrific way in which the current Secretary of Health and Human Services handles a crisis and how he's hiding his drug use from his wife and a bunch of other stuff, I think that's some relevant information for us in this moment. So I'll have more on that over on the next level, as I mentioned. So please go check that out.
Me, Sarah, and JVL are taping that every week. It's where we get to let our hair down a little bit more. On this show, it's a little tight because I'm flying to D.C. and I'm going to be doing the next level in person in D.C. And so I had a short window this morning and we had a little guest shuffle. And so I appreciated Jonathan Lemire jumping on with me in between his Morning Joe segments.
That dude works, all right? While you were in bed, Jonathan Lemire was on TV, leaving TV, doing this podcast, going back to TV. He's not a coal miner or anything, but... You know, you got to respect the grind. And so we had a little bit of abbreviated pod with Lemire and then I gave you some extended remarks at the end of the show on the Tennessee special election results last night.
So there is no limit of content. Carpenter yesterday, Nutsy yesterday. Today we got Jonathan Lemire. We got the next level coming out later. Stick around for all of that. Appreciate you guys. Up next, Jonathan Lemire. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show a staff writer at The Atlantic, co-host of Morning Joe on MSNOW.
He's covered the White House since 2016 for a bunch of outlets, Politico, AP. It's Jonathan Lemire. What's up, man? Hey, man. Good to see you. Good to see you, too. You had a great piece for The Atlantic this week I wanted to grab you on called The Bubble-Wrapped President regarding Trump. And I think it's interesting because it's kind of like –
Sort of a traditional type of piece that you could have written about Joe Biden or George Bush. Trump is different in a lot of ways and unique in a lot of ways. But this has been an issue kind of as old as time with presidents. How do you, when you're inside this White House, maintain touch with what's happening in the country?
Trump avoided that a little bit through his rallies and other ways throughout his time. But it feels like he is now... kind of receding into a problem that we've seen from more normal politicians in the past. What do you make of that?
Yeah, I mean, he's far from the first president, as you say, to struggle with the bubble. Some of that is the nature of the White House.
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Chapter 3: How has Trump's approach to connecting with voters changed?
Some of that's the extraordinary security measures that come with the job. But Trump is facing an extreme version of it now. And a big part of it is, there's a number of reasons, but the biggest one I'd argue is he stopped doing his rallies, which frankly are the signature political event of our last decade, the Trump rally, right?
It started in 2015, all the way through his reelection bid a year ago. And not only would he travel the country, but he'd use those rallies as like testing grounds. He'd give a line. He'd see what kind of response it got. The Well, he'd say it the next night, and a line would become part of the speech, which sometimes would become policy.
If something that he said that went over like a dud, well, he usually would drop that. But also before and after the events, he would meet with people, local officials, state party chairs, even just some regular supporters occasionally. And though he didn't love traveling the country, it gave him a real window into what his base cared about.
He stopped doing that, and people around him were afraid he's now flying blind.
Why did he stop it? You were in the article that he told his aides after the Grand Rapids rally at the end of the campaign in 2024 that that would be his last. You said there that he didn't enjoy really traveling the country. He did seem to enjoy the rallies.
Oh, he loved being on stage, no doubt. And it is a surprise to some people around him. that they've stopped. I mean, yeah, he closes every campaign by, he's very superstitious with that, with an event in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And after the one in 2024, which was in the early hours of Election Day that Tuesday morning, he said, that's it, I'm done.
Now, he's actually had a couple of small sort of rally-like events early this year. He did one to mark 100 days in office. That was also in Michigan. But it was nothing compared to what you'd consider a full-fledged Trump rally. It's a couple of things. I am told that, you know, look,
I mean, he continued to do rallies after the assassination attempt in Butler County, Pennsylvania, but understandably got spooked by that. Secret Service also has made it that much harder. You know, their qualifications for securing a venue that much higher now. But also I think he was sort of just worn out.
And we know the president doesn't like to talk about being tired or the fact that he's approaching 80, but it is exhausting. And he has instead traded those for nights at the White House. He's traded that for dinners with billionaires or business leaders who want something for him. And we looked at his schedule. In 2017, the first year of his first term,
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of Trump's dining with billionaires?
Now, look, again, this is where he's a little bit like a typical president. A lot of second term presidents who inherently are a lame duck find that they can't do as much with a domestic agenda. They often shift focus to foreign policy. Oh, that's where we'll leave. I'll make my legacy. You know, that's where I think I can do more unilaterally. I don't need Congress's approval on the world stage.
So in this case, President Trump is acting like that. But he also you just said it. He's desperate for a Nobel Peace Prize. By the day, the number of conflicts he's allegedly ended, his tally seems to go up. But some of his most faithful supporters are saying, wait a minute, your focus should be here at home. That's what you promised during the campaign last year.
I don't want to see you in Saudi Arabia. Sure, it's important to talk about peace in the Middle East, but don't forget here at home. And Marjorie Taylor Greene, right before she fully broke with the president, she was one of those voices who said, look, Leave Air Force One parked on the tarmac. Stay here in the United States.
You would think that that would be a red flashing warning sign for him that if Bannon and Marjorie Taylor Greene are complaining about something and Marco Rubio is happy. And it's just another thing about the second term that's kind of related to the bubble wrap, which is more than the first time
He does kind of care about the feedback of the rich CEOs, the people that are funding the ballroom, you know, Marco, right? It's kind of this weird dichotomy where like the people that were in there last time that were establishment that were kind of putting the brakes on him, you know, those folks are not there.
But there's like a new class of kind of establishment suck-ups that he seems to be gravitating to more than the traditional MAGA allies. What do you make of that?
Yeah, and people around Trump have long said, and I've covered him for a long time now, say the one thing that impresses him is wealth. And he loves the idea that these rich, powerful people are coming to him to kiss the ring or to ask him for things.
or to donate money to whatever cause he suggests, whether that's the presidential library that allegedly is going to be built someday, or the ballroom that's now in place of the devastated White House East Wing. But you also make a good point. In the first term, he was surrounded by some establishment Republican figures, folks you know well, who would occasionally tell him no, who would
pump the brakes on some of his ideas. That's just gone this time around by design. It's just true belief. So therefore no one is telling him, Hey, you're actually out of touch here. No one's saying this is a bad idea. And even his, his media diet has become more and more that way. There was, you know, in the first term, yes, of course there's Fox news.
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Chapter 5: How is Trump's travel schedule impacting his presidency?
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In addition to his diet, there's the bubble of the press pool itself. Yes. And I wanted to talk to you about that in particular. I wasn't invited. The Bullock didn't make the press pool the first time around. You were there, though, with AP and Politico. And so, you know, he's doing a lot of press conferences still. You got to just acknowledge that. Like, he's still taking a lot of questions.
But, like, the makeup of the people questioning him has changed so dramatically from last time. and like there's some handful of people mixed in every once in a while you'll see Caitlin Collins in there Vaughn was at the White House yesterday you'll see some people but like a lot of you know MAGA blogger 420 also are asking him questions you know this is a
a great point. And it's one of the things that he's done differently this time around is the White House has more or less hijacked the press pool over the objections of the White House Correspondents Association that kicked AP out early on for not saying Gulf of America. And since then, now the White House picks who's in the pool every day. So you're right.
Trump still takes a lot of questions, but here's where it's changed. In two ways. In the first term, he held a lot of like formal news conferences where everyone was in there and reporters from every outlet, even in his estimation, the lamestream media, could ask him questions. He stopped doing formal news conferences this time. He still takes a lot of questions, but only from the pool.
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Chapter 6: What challenges does Trump face with his Cabinet meetings?
But also, he's dozing off. He's seeming tired. You can understand why he might not have wanted to travel, why it's easier just to go, you know, shuffle down to the – to the cabinet room, have people tell you how great you are. It seems like a night, you know, take a little cat nap. I'm a napper, so that's fine. But, you know, it seems like he dozed off several times.
It's usually one little nap for me in a day, but he's, it looks like he got a couple of them during that cabinet meeting.
I usually inevitably have a 15-minute early afternoon. You're up on way too early. The way too early days, the alarm would go off at 3.15. Now, starting at 6 for morning Joe, I get to sleep all the way into 4.30. 15 minutes for you. Are you in the suit? Honestly, Tim, it depends on the day. Some days, it's just like leaning back in the chair.
Other days, it's more of a full-fledged, I'm going to lay down for a few minutes and be in my workout gear, whatever it might be.
So we have two expert nappers here. So I think that we bring some expertise to kind of assessing Trump's style.
Where I don't nap usually is in front of the press pool in the cabinet. And that is where President Trump did yesterday. It's not the first time. There's been a few of these in recent weeks. The Washington Post in particular has been on this beat, noting when he was really chronically with video how long he appeared to have been asleep.
But I think the timing of this one is interesting because it comes just a week after the New York Times did a big story about his schedule and how almost like a dovetailed piece with mine, but they really focused on the hours of the day that he was working. And they said, well, compared to the first term, he's starting later and his days are ending earlier. And the White House pushed back.
We know President Trump hates to ever acknowledge any bit of human frailty. including what part of his body he received an MRI. But in this case, they said, no, he's working all hours of the day. Look how he's tireless. He's got the stamina of a much younger man.
And then just days later, this happened in the White House where he was clearly dozing off, you know, off and on during what was a marathon three-hour cabinet meeting. He's pushing 80.
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Chapter 7: How does Trump's focus on foreign policy affect domestic issues?
We're seeing progress. It's like a whack-a-mole, okay? It's like a whack-a-mole, so you got to keep doing it. They got to keep monitoring because these fuckers are still trying to take your data no matter what. But if you're looking to protect yourself, I turn to delete me.
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That's joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. Not to belabor the point here, but another thing that you might look to on evidence that he is a little bit out of touch. He starts talking about the affordability also yesterday during the academy. You see this and he says that he thinks that voters are getting fake news. from people like you about affordability. Affordability is a hoax.
It was started by the Democrats.
This actually dovetails with another piece that I wrote recently where suddenly Trump 2.0 is starting to feel a lot like Trump 1.0, where for the first, you know, seven, eight months of this term, I mean, You can argue whether you agree with what he did was good, but he was effective in sort of enacting his agenda, facing no pushback from Congress, very little from the courts, et cetera.
In the last two months or so, he's hit a ton of roadblocks, including with a lot of unforced errors. And this moment— yesterday is just the latest time where he's really downplayed the affordability crisis.
And that reminds me of so many times in the first term where the White House would be positioned, staff around him would be like, okay, we're going to talk about this issue X, Y, or Z, it's important. And Trump would just be like, yeah, I don't want to, and just blow it up in the moment. And that's what happened here too. The White House is actually prepared.
After the election results of a month ago, recognize that affordability is a crisis. Republicans are going to have a problem next year during the midterms on that issue. They're trying to prepare Trump to talk about it, and he simply won't. He'll use the word affordability, but it's always joined by the words hoax or con job.
He simply won't acknowledge that Americans are feeling the pain right now.
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Chapter 8: What does the Tennessee special election reveal about voter sentiment?
Now, what we then learned is that they were doing so with talking points largely provided by Russia, and Ukraine, of course, wanted nothing to do with it. Now, Kyiv has learned their lessons. They don't want to publicly disagree with Trump anymore. They saw how that happened Trump blew up at Zelensky in the Oval Office. So they're being much more diplomatic about it, but they've made it clear.
There are things in that deal they just certainly could not agree to. Secretary of State Rubio stepped in the process, struck a more supportive tone for Ukraine than perhaps Steve Witkoff has done. But yesterday, Witkoff and Jared Kushner were in Moscow. They met with Putin. Both sides acknowledged, OK, we agreed to keep talking. Maybe small progress made, no breakthrough made.
Unless Trump is willing to step in decisively one way or the other, and your guess is as good as mine as to whose side we would come in on, I think that conflict is going to continue as is for a while, and we're going to do this all again in a month or two.
Sixth meeting between our outer borough Russia-Ukraine envoy and Putin. Zero trips to Ukraine for him. Not one. Did he get any presents yesterday? Putin has been pretty good at buttering up Wyckoff. Did he get any paintings of himself or anything?
Or a medal. No, he's done that before, but I'm not aware of what he had to declare customs coming back this time.
Another, one of your colleagues wrote this today, so to pop this, it's kind of related to what you're seeing happening in Europe, something you've been covering, is in Germany. You guys write at The Atlantic, for the first time since World War II, Germany is permanently stationing troops beyond its borders. Not long ago, these plans would have set off international alarms, but as the U.S.
upends the global order it created, Germany may have no other choice. This is something, while we're doing Groundhog Day on the Russia-Ukraine negotiations, and Europe is moving. Things are changing. And I just think this is an interesting kind of tangible data point on that.
No doubt. My colleague Isaac Stanley Becker wrote a great piece on this. And this shows you just how the world has changed because of Donald Trump's foreign policy. And what Europe – the lesson Europe has learned over this last year in particular is – They can't count on the United States anymore. And, you know, and it's not just because Trump's in office now.
It's that, you know, we had four years of President Trump. Then President Biden is elected basically on, you know, he come out of the gate saying America's back. You can count on us again. Well, that turned out not to be the case because Donald Trump was then put back in office. You know, Europe has realized that.
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