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The Bulwark Podcast

Jonathan V. Last and Carol Leonnig: The Danger of a Weakened Bully

06 Nov 2025

Transcription

Chapter 1: What were the implications of Trump's recent election outcomes?

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Chapter 2: How did the Hispanic vote impact the recent elections?

73.032 - 87.806 Tim Miller

Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a doubleheader up today. Could not be more excited about the second block with Carol Lennig, one of my favorite reporters who's moved over to MS Now from the Washington Post. She's got a new book out about the Justice Department that I've been devouring.

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88.527 - 97.275 Tim Miller

But first, my buddy, my co-host on the Next Level Podcast, author of the Triad Newsletter, your favorite, Jonathan Victor Last, JVL. What's up, JVL?

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97.876 - 104.696 Jonathan V. Last

Hey, man. It's nice to be here when things aren't, like, totally terrible. That's a first in a while.

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104.736 - 109.844 Tim Miller

Yeah. We're going to do some feelings at the end. I'm having some mixed feelings. I'm going to save that for people.

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Chapter 3: What are the challenges facing the Department of Justice under Trump?

109.864 - 128.993 Tim Miller

We're going to do happy talk at the beginning. Then we'll go over my mixed feelings about everything. JBL, I wanted to grab you because it was just such a big win for the Democrats on Tuesday night and such a big wave. And we were talking on the next level, kind of live as it was coming in, kind of processing everything. So I wanted to just have a little bit of a deeper conversation.

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128.973 - 149.901 Tim Miller

both analytical and emotional kind of recap of where things stand right now. And you did a newsletter yesterday on the Hispanic vote. That was a banger, as they all are. So I want to start talking about the Hispanic vote, and then we'll get into some more big picture stuff. Pretty stunning, just the degree to which the Republicans tanked.

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149.881 - 159.688 Tim Miller

all of their gains and then some with hispanic voters you know again admittedly these are in blue states maybe things are a little bit different in the border states but um but why don't you talk about what you found

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159.787 - 173.543 Jonathan V. Last

Yeah, so here's what we found. I was looking at Union City, which is the most heavily Hispanic township in New Jersey. It's like 81, 82% Hispanic.

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Chapter 4: What actions might Trump take as a lame duck president?

173.563 - 196.431 Jonathan V. Last

So overwhelmingly Hispanic. And it's a pretty big place. They're up in Hudson County. And here is how Trump's vote share grew. He went in 2016, 19%. Okay. 2020, 28%. Twenty twenty four. Forty one percent. So this is like the big Hispanic realignment.

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196.451 - 200.837 Tim Miller

The Hispanics in Union City were like, man, the more I see of this guy.

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200.978 - 209.349 Jonathan V. Last

Yeah, we're into that. That sounds like a great idea. So, I mean, you've read the things I won't like pretend like.

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Chapter 5: How is the Supreme Court's stance affecting Trump's policies?

209.369 - 235.812 Jonathan V. Last

Can you guess, Tim, what it was? But the answer is 15.1 percent. The Republican Jack Ciattarelli dropped from the Trump share of 41 to 15.1%. So, like, he lost 25% off of Trump's 2016 total. Mikey Sherrill was plus 50 in this county. And Steve Kornickai over at MS, I guess not.

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236.028 - 242.9 Tim Miller

Yeah. Let's say that you're not a TV watcher, which I love about you. JBL does not consume cable TV. Is that wrong?

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242.92 - 243.862 Jonathan V. Last

Is he not on MS?

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244.062 - 247.689 Tim Miller

No, he's not anymore, actually. We've lost him off of MS now. He's on NBC.

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Chapter 6: What are the long-term consequences of Trump's actions on American democracy?

248.01 - 254.862 Tim Miller

But it's pronounced Kornacki. Oh, okay. Steve Kornacki, the gay man with the khakis. Khaki, Kornacki, it rhymes. It's a bit.

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254.882 - 278.421 Jonathan V. Last

I always knew him as a guy who wrote for Salon back in the day. I know. It's been a minute. Yeah. Anyway, so he went through and pulled the municipalities in Jersey with more than 60 percent Hispanic demographics. And there are one, two, three, four, like nine of them. And on average, they swung about 50 points against where they had been.

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278.789 - 281.072 Tim Miller

It's truly crazy. I'm just going to read a couple of them.

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Chapter 7: What insights does Carol Leonnig provide about the DOJ in her new book?

281.092 - 294.468 Tim Miller

You mentioned Union City already, but Passaic County, which is what a lot of folks focused on. That had been a longtime Democratic stronghold. Trump actually won it by seven. Sheryl won it by 26. It's only a 33-point swing there only.

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294.628 - 316.042 Jonathan V. Last

Perth Amboy. Harris plus nine. Sheryl plus 56. I mean, it's just an unbelievable turn. West New York. Harris plus 13. Sheryl plus 57. Patterson, Harris plus 28, Sherrill plus 71. It's hard to win a place by 71 points.

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Chapter 8: How can the DOJ regain credibility after recent political pressures?

316.182 - 318.345 Jonathan V. Last

It's really hard. I mean, when you just do the math on what that means.

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318.485 - 325.412 Tim Miller

I mean, Zoran did it in Bushwick. Sure. Most of the time. Sure. Most of the time it is tough. Trump does it out in, you know, West Texas.

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325.472 - 334.362 Jonathan V. Last

But again, that is a 12 month swing. Yeah. That is not a like four years to now. That is a 12 months ago to right now.

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334.342 - 350.98 Tim Miller

There's some caveats to this. It's just important to say because I know that people will push back. So we should just go through them. For starters, it's an off-off year. So there's kind of a self-selecting group of every voter, including Hispanic voters. It probably is such that it's a higher college-educated percentage.

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351.06 - 363.899 Tim Miller

It's probably such that it's a higher percentage of people who are really engaged in what's going on in the news, the types of people that tend to be more Democrat. are going to vote in a off year than a presidential year. So, you know, there's some elements to that.

364.32 - 382.433 Tim Miller

You know, in Union City in particular, there's a big article, this guy Brian Stack, Jersey's one of the few places where they still have machine politics stuff. And like he is a friend of Sheryl, they went and dig, right? Like, so there's some caveats, but like... 50 points is not, you know what I mean? Like, okay, let's say he's down 20 points instead.

382.474 - 404.747 Tim Miller

If you put it up against a general presidential electorate and you put it into a different state where there isn't as much kind of union machine politics happening, even still, you know, the swing is remarkable. And you saw in Virginia, for example, in Manasa City, which is a highly concentrated Hispanic precinct out by Dulles Airport. And, you know, you saw a similar story there.

404.913 - 432.714 Jonathan V. Last

Well, and this also matches up with the polling, right? And so this is one of the big questions we had going into Tuesday was, wow, the polling on two particular groups, 18 to 35 and Hispanic voters, has looked... post-apocalyptic. So we've seen in like almost like zombie apocalypse level collapses for Trump within both voters 18 to 35 and Hispanic voters over the last 10 months.

432.734 - 456.924 Jonathan V. Last

And some of the Hispanic polling suggested he had lost like 45 points with Hispanic voters, which seemed crazy, right? Except that it shows up in a lot of surveys. And this was the first test of, well, is it, can you see it in the wild as well? And it turned out Turns out you can. And so that, I think, is a little bit of confirmation. It's going to make polling 2026 really hard. Right.

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