The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1018: Andrew Weissmann and Patrick Gaspard: Naked Corruption
Thu, 10 Apr 2025
Just before he paused the tariffs on Wednesday, an unusual spike in activity on the S&P 500 prompted speculation that Trump was orchestrating an insider trading scheme. After the markets closed, he joked with *the* Charles Schwab about how the financier had made $2.5 billion in trades that day. Meanwhile, Trump ordered the DOJ to investigate two former officials he regards as enemies—this comes on the heels of his efforts to intimidate law firms from taking on clients who oppose him. Plus, Trump's long obsession with white South Africans, and do Democrats listen too much to grassroots activist groups? Andrew Weissmann and Patrick Gaspard join Tim Miller. show notes Andrew's Substack Rep. Steve Horsford questioning whether the tariff pause was market manipulation
Chapter 1: Who are the guests on this episode and what is their background?
Hey, everybody. Real quick announcement. We got a doubleheader today. Just finished it. It's awesome. Andrew Wiseman gives you everything you need to know about Trump asking his DOJ to go after two whistleblowers from his first administration. Just a really chilling announcement. I needed to get Andrew on at the last minute here to make sure you guys had all the info on that.
And then we have a new guest, Patrick Gaspard, who is the ED of the DNC a while back. He's done everything really in the Democratic Party. And I thought it was just a really great conversation. So just to make sure to stick around for that. All right. One other scheduling thing.
I had some issues juggling a guest for tomorrow's pod because I'm flying to Coachella, as you guys know, taking three days off, not listening to the news, not reading your emails. I'm just enjoying my happy place in the desert. And because I had a guest scheduling issue, we've got we got somebody sitting in tomorrow and it's going to be great. You're in great hands.
So do not skip the podcast tomorrow. You will really enjoy it, I promise. But I had this Catholic guilt that I was abandoning you on a Friday. Instead, I am joining Sarah for the secret podcast. Every Friday, Sarah and JVL have a secret pod that's for Bulwark Plus subscribers only. It's one of the very few things that we do not offer for free.
It's just one of the little bonus lanyards for our Bulwark Plus members. So if you need a Friday Dose of Tim, This is your moment to join Bulwark Plus. It's going to be me and Sarah. Just go to thebulwark.com slash subscribe. You can check it out. We're going to talk about our feelings. We're going to vibe out. It'll be great. And I'll be back here, as usual, with Bill Kristol on Monday.
So up next, Andrew Weissman. Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. He's back. He's a professor of practice at NYU Law School. He was a lead prosecutor on Bob Mueller's investigation of Russian interference in the 2016 election. And he was chief of the fraud section at DOJ. He co-hosts the podcast Main Justice with Mary McCord and his sub stack is behind the headlines.
You figured it out by now. It's Andrew Wiseman. How you doing, Andrew?
Good, good. I am always assuming when you ask that question, you're asking it sort of very limited personal scope, because otherwise, you could go on for a really long time, which is actually the subject of what we're about to talk about.
Yeah, extremely limited personal scope, because otherwise, things are not great when you're kind of like, the unofficial political prosecution correspondent of the board podcast that's like trump goes after a new person i'm like we got to get why we got to add wiseman to the schedule for tomorrow um since uh you know one of these days he might be in the barrel on this uh so you know
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Chapter 2: What is the controversy involving Trump ordering DOJ investigations into whistleblowers?
That's a little glimmer. I'll take it. I'll take a little glimmer. Thank you so much as always, Andrew Wiseman. Check out his podcast, Being Justice, his sub stack. And, you know, the next time there's really dire news about the soft autocracy in our country, we'll have you back. So you mean tomorrow? It's probably sooner than, well, not sooner than I wish. I love talking to you.
So we'll see you soon. Thanks so much, Andrew Wiseman. Up next, Patrick Gaspar. We are back. He's a distinguished senior fellow at the Center for American Progress, served in a number of key positions during the Obama administration, including as ambassador to South Africa. He also is executive director of the Democratic National Committee. It's Patrick Gaspard. Welcome to the podcast. First time.
Tim, thank you so very much for having me on. I love your show. Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate that. But wanting to do it. We have a lot of news to get to a lot of business. And I don't want to hash out a little bit of the Democratic Party kind of not infighting, but strategizing maybe to use the old Will Ferrell line.
But first, I just I have to pick your brain about the South Africa element because I can't follow what's happening. I would love for you to explain to me this obsession that this administration has with the land theft. And I guess we're the only refugees in the world we're allowing in right now are the white Afrikaners from South Africa. What's going on here? Yeah, it's bonkers.
And I appreciate that you're starting there instead of the liberation from Liberation Day, which I'm sure will... I'm sure we'll get to it at some point.
But look, the South African thing is something that my friends in South Africa are struggling to understand because they are so used to dealing with American politicians, Democrats and Republicans, whose agendas are kind of transparent, that are tied. to these outcomes and trade and security. And they've been responding in a very traditional way.
And it's not working because there was nothing traditional about this. So here's the first thing I'd say. The kind of miracle of Donald Trump as president of the United States in the foreign policy space is that he's managed to collapse the daylight between foreign policy and domestic political constituency.
That's the really important thing to understand about this guy that makes him incredibly different than any president
I think that the only time we've ever had this kind of conflation of domestic politics with foreign policy and this kind of a way that's suffused throughout is under Eisenhower in the McCarthy era, where foreign policy was a servant to domestic politics in a way that just hasn't been since. And so for Trump, that's an important thing to understand.
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Chapter 3: How does the executive order on security clearances affect Miles Taylor and Chris Krebs?
Oh, my God. Now it's time. I remember that job.
What are we going to do? I remember that job. What are we going to do? Okay. There are a couple of questions. To be aggressive or to be patient. Me and James Carville are hashing this out. Is it roll over and play dead and let them fuck it up or be in the streets? There's that element. There's the ideological valence. Is it more of what Bernie and AOC are doing with fighting oligarchy or what?
You know, you've seen from Ezra and some of the others who are pushing more of like, you know, we should be the party of, you know, abundance and making sure people can succeed. And these things aren't all binary. But a practical example of this, let me get you in a little trouble, is yesterday. But how Democrats should be acting with the governor of Michigan. I know where this is going.
The governor of Michigan, Governor Gretchen Whitmer. was in the White House, I guess, for a meeting with Trump about... There's an ice storm in Michigan, and there's some defense investments they want from the... So legitimate reasons to want to talk with the federal government. If you're the governor of Michigan, you want those investments in your state. You need emergency help. And yet...
Do you need to fly to D.C.? Do you need to be in the White House? Whitmer ends up kind of getting boned, but maybe it's her own fault, in my view. She ends up being in there while he's signing these executive orders targeting Chris Krebs and Miles Taylor. She's in the room. So, you know, where's the balance here between Gretchen Whitmer and Janet Mills shouting them down?
Let's start with Governor Whitmer, and then let's go back out to your much bigger question, which I think would be the much more important one. So, on Gretchen Whitmer, if you live in Michigan, you want your governor... to be in direct conversation with the president of the United States. That is always a good thing. That is a necessary thing. We begin there.
Let's recognize, though, that one of the reasons why Governor Whitmer, who I just, I freaking love Governor Whitmer, the reason why she was challenged by many wasn't just because of the meeting.
But the speech that preceded the meeting, she gave an address where she talked about where we're at right now, and she was seen to be insufficiently critical of Donald Trump and the tariffs and all the stuff that you just delineated before in her address. So that's a part of this where people were like, wait a second, is she kind of acquiescing to a thing here? That's part of the challenge.
At the end of the day, even though you want your governor to be in conversation with the president, you want to have clarity on- who your governor is fighting for and what your governor is trying to solve for. And I think that wasn't altogether clear in the engagement that the governor had. And I'm going to be clear with you, Tim, like I'm a huge fan of the governor.
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