Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Welcome to The Classical Mind, a podcast about the great books in the Western tradition. We're your hosts. I'm Father Wesley Walker.
And I'm Dr. Junius Johnson.
And we're very excited to have a special guest today, Dr. Grace Heyman, who has her PhD from Duke University and is an independent scholar focusing on late medieval poetry and contemplative writing.
She's written some really incredible books, Ask of Old Paths, Medieval Virtue and Vices for a Whole and Holy Life, and Jesus Through Medieval Eyes, Beholding Christ with Artists, Mystics, and Theologians in the Middle Ages. She also has a great substack called Medievalish, and hosts the podcast Old Books with Grace, where, like us, she reads and discusses old books.
So we thought this would be a really fun opportunity for us to kind of join forces and discuss an old book. Grace, how are you?
I'm so glad to be here.
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Chapter 2: What is the significance of Oscar Wilde's The Importance of Being Earnest?
This is so fun. I hadn't cracked open this book in a long time, and it was so fun to return to it. So... Delightful.
That's actually one thing we like to do kind of at the beginning is maybe talk through a little bit of our personal experiences with the text. So when was your first encounter with The Importance of Being Earnest by Oscar Wilde?
I was trying to remember when I first encountered this book, and I'm pretty sure that I was in middle school. I went through a huge phase where I was reading like anything that was mentioned in another book, like any classic that... had like a lot of people were referencing it. I wanted to know, I wanted to be on the end of what it was.
And so I'm pretty sure that this was in that season where I was reading like a ton of Charles Dickens and like anything that was like classic with a capital C. And Oscar Wilde's Importance of Being Earnest came up. And so I read that. And really thought it was funny. Also probably honestly missed a lot of the jokes because I was like, you know, 13 or whatever.
And then that was around the same time that the adaptation starring Colin Firth came out. And my friends and I saw that in the theaters and just thought it was hilarious. And so it's such a fun, such a fun play.
It absolutely is. And I think even reading it as an adult, every time I pick it up, there are jokes that I did not pick up on before. It's kind of one of those multifaceted texts in that way. Junius, you kind of have the opposite opinion. experience with the text, or sort of anyway, so what about you? How have you encountered this text before?
I first encountered this text, it was performed when I was in college, and so the university theater troupe did it, and I went to see it. I want to say that we might have even had a an English club event with them where we did a sort of pre-play discussion. And so I would have gone to see the dress rehearsal so that I'd get a sense for how they were doing it and whatnot.
And then we did the discussion and then I stayed and watched the play, but I hadn't read it. And this was my first time reading it. I've seen it again since then. I don't remember if it was the movie version I saw or another stage production, but I know I've seen it a couple of times, but I'd never read it before.
And so it was really, I was eager to see how it would hold up on paper because I really enjoyed it on stage. And, you know, to anticipate a little bit, it's even better because it is so densely packed with jokes that you kind of need some time. And it goes by so quickly. And I think it ought to go by quickly on the stage.
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Chapter 3: How did each host first encounter The Importance of Being Earnest?
That's such a cool idea for encounter because I think this play works for that in particular because it is so funny and packed in with the jokes.
That's right. And not long. It's short. I mean, it's kind of the point it's light. So it's not like a lot of other Victorian plays that are very serious and offering a political commentary or social commentary. It's like pretty. In fact, that was kind of one of the criticisms about it. I think when it came out was this really isn't about anything anymore.
the Victorian very funny very like what are these people doing are they real are they not real I don't know
In fact, that is kind of the genre of it. I think it's called a drawing room play. And it was kind of, they were just sort of bored, you know, these kind of aristocratic class people. And they would put on these little kind of amateur productions in their drawing rooms for their families.
And it kind of developed into a genre in which they would maybe face, characters would face certain cultural problems in a sort of comedic or farcical manner. But Wilde really sort of perfects it here, I think. He's kind of... We don't read a lot of other drawing room plays. I mean, there are some, but we don't really give it the attention that The Importance of Being Earnest gets.
Well, and it makes a lot of sense because if you think about what's required from the standpoint of properties, from the props you'd need to put it on, nothing is required that wouldn't be in your drawing room, right? Your tea service and things like that. Muffins. Yeah, right? So it'd be really easy to do. Cucumber sandwiches. The scenes are very simple. There's only three real scenes.
And the department in London, the garden in the countryside, and then interior in the countryside, and that's it. So, yeah. Yeah.
yeah and I think it's a it's an interesting play as well because the Victorian era is not like particularly known for its plays I feel like so this is kind of an interesting artifact in its own sense because you have you're about to head into a season with a lot more like plays that we still read and perform today but from this era and I'm not like a play, like a drama expert by any means.
This is one of the few plays that I feel like we still read at all from this era. Yeah. Like frequently.
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Chapter 4: What is the historical context of The Importance of Being Earnest?
Wild is a master of showing the art of self-persuasion on things. And so you have the hilarious scene where the women are watching the men eat the muffins and they're saying like, basically, look how contritely they're eating their muffins. They seem truly regretful.
And they're just telling themselves a story about this muffin eating that fits this like big, lovely narrative that they want to be true, right?
Yeah.
And, and I think that is exactly what you're describing where with serious things we bend ourselves around them. And then with the trivial things we we make them make sense according to what we want to be important right so we go that's trivial that's actually not important in my way of thinking. in my way of living, whatever.
And that is something that Wilde is so good at showing us how we write these narratives and are so ready to believe them and they're so silly ultimately.
Yeah. We all look as foolish as these characters do to anyone with a properly objective eye. Father Winston, what were you going to say about liturgy? Oh, yes.
I was going to say liturgy, I feel like, is a good teacher for me on this topic. Marriage certainly is a great one as well. But, you know, I mean, there's a sense in which as a priest, you know, on Sunday when you're celebrating the Mass, you know, you are in the person of Christ and you're supposed to represent God to the people and the people to God. And it is a very serious role.
But, of course, none of us fill it perfectly. You know, sometimes some Sundays are more embarrassing than others. Like, You say these words and not these words. You miss this or that or you're not supposed to do that. And it can be real easy in the moment to kind of let that weigh on your shoulders of like, wow, I just messed up this really important thing.
And I'm not saying we should treat the liturgy flippantly, but there is something about stepping outside of yourself and kind of laughing at, you know, oh, yeah. I did that. Darn, I messed it up. Oh, well. And just kind of moving on rather than dwelling on it or taking it so seriously that your day is ruined because of it or something like that.
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Chapter 5: How does Wilde's personal life influence the themes in the play?
But it's that he doesn't have to preach to you. All he has to do is just show you what's really going on and the contradictions themselves will do the work. And I feel like Oscar Wilde is in that same sort of space. Interesting.
Yeah.
I suppose that plays into the role of farce just in general, right? It's not necessarily about offering some sort of large meta answer to some of the questions and contradictions, but simply to draw them out and to make us wrestle with them.
Um,
That's right. And it is a shame, therefore, that on the reading lists that we make up of the great books of the Western tradition, there are not more comedies. And that even where the comedies are present, they're tending to get de-emphasized, right? I mean, you may have a Utopia or Gulliver's Travels on the list, but how many people have it on the syllabus?
Yes. Or you only have Shakespeare, Shakespeare comedy. That's it. Like that's the one representative. And while Shakespeare's comedies are incredible and everyone should read them. Yeah. He's doing something pretty different than Oscar Wilde is doing, you know, or than Chaucer even is doing in some ways.
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Well, and then when we do read Chaucer, who is a very comic writer, there's that bifurcation that comes. We've got to treat him as either totally making fun of everything, which actually turns him into a very serious critic of the church and society and things like this. And so it takes the comedy out of it.
Or we treat him as very serious, very serious as a heart attack, which also is going to have the effect of losing the farcical, what the farce is there for. Because in medieval writers, and I think in Oscar Wilde for sure, farce is never just farce.
No.
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