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The Counter Ruck

Is rugby’s TMO process fair?

08 May 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What recent officiating controversy sparked discussion in rugby?

4.486 - 26.155 Nathan Johns

Hello, you're very welcome along to the Counter Rock Rugby Podcast brought to you by the Irish Times in partnership with Oak Energy. Women's Six Nations returns this weekend. Ireland have named their team. They've got back-to-back home games to finish off the competition against Wales up in Belfast this weekend. And then the big one, Scotland at the Aviva Stadium on Sunday the 17th.

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26.436 - 31.202 Nathan Johns

Ireland have won one of their first three games. They lost to England and Scotland.

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31.182 - 51.368 Nathan Johns

france either side of beating italy hammering them out in galway but they just named their team for this wales game they would be favored to win the next two eve higgins is back in at center she replaces nancy mcgillivray otherwise it's a very settled group there's a debut for neve gallagher on the bench who plays over in england with trail finders

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51.348 - 60.181 Nathan Johns

That kicks off against Wales, half six on Saturday night. Elsewhere, Munster and Connacht face off in a big inter-pro with top eight implications.

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Chapter 2: How did Johan van Graan address the officiating issues in the Bath-Bordeaux game?

60.221 - 79.532 Nathan Johns

Leinster are at home to the Lions and Ulster are at home to the Stormers. But we're not going to preview those games per se today because for the first time in a while, it feels like there's been an officiating controversy that's gripped the rugby world and that was the infamous... TMO slash French TV director problem from Bath's defeat to Bordeaux on the weekend.

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79.692 - 100.33 Nathan Johns

Johan van Graan, the Bath head coach, came out afterwards and listed the timestamps of three head collisions or what he saw as head collisions in the game against his team. And he lamented the fact that they either weren't looked at or they didn't produce cards. It certainly didn't seem on the broadcast live appropriate. that we had access to any of the replays.

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100.631 - 115.622 Nathan Johns

So there's been lots of discussion about the usual conspiracy theory of French TV directors not giving officials angles that would look bad for French teams. Lots of people have come out and tried to explain how the process actually works Who controls what?

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Chapter 3: What role does the TMO play in rugby officiating?

115.842 - 133.08 Nathan Johns

How much say does the TMO have? How much are they reliant on TV directors that are not rugby referees to help them out? Why does this problem seem to rear its head more often than not in France? So there's a lot going on. So to try and help us explain some of this, we've got Owen Doyle, former referee who writes a column for the Irish Times.

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133.38 - 157.579 Nathan Johns

He's going to come in now and help us chat through the state of officiating in the game. Oh, and thank you very much for doing this. It feels like we always get you on to explain why the world is burning after a referee, or in this case, a TMO and TV director controversy. You wrote a column on this during the week, end of TV director, controlling what is shown on replay, cannot come soon enough.

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157.559 - 162.105 Nathan Johns

How have we gotten to this stage where, I mean, this is primarily based on the Bath-Bordeaux game, isn't it?

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Chapter 4: Why do some believe the French TV directors influence TMO decisions?

162.125 - 181.913 Nathan Johns

Where Johan van Graan, very calmly, it must be said, but still came out afterwards and listed in this minute and this minute and this minute, my number eight got hit in the head and nothing was done about it. We're angry, but Bordeaux deserved to win. It should be said he was very gracious about it. But arguably the second or third biggest domestic match of the season, we're in a situation where

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181.893 - 188.864 Nathan Johns

Are we blaming the TMO? Are we blaming the referee? Are we blaming the faceless French TV director? Nobody knows what's going on.

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190.126 - 206.871 Owen Doyle

I think when these things happen, and they've been happening for donkey's years, that the blame is sometimes the TMO, sometimes it's the referee, and sometimes it's the television director. Now, in this instance, the referee probably saw the clashes

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Chapter 5: What are the differences in TMO processes across various leagues?

207.138 - 231.171 Owen Doyle

But the modus operandi now, it's gone to the stage that he won't make a decision until the TMO, who's sweeping up behind him, has another look and says, holy moly, we have to look at that. So he then tells the referee and the referee stops the game and they have a good look at it. And the referee then, the maximum he can do normally in all the matches we've seen so far is,

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231.151 - 253.108 Owen Doyle

he can send the player for an off-field review to the bunker. But for some extraordinary reason, Europe aren't using the bunker. That's confused a lot of people. I have a lot of texts, come on, why did he just give me a yellow card? Why didn't he send him for review? So that's sort of an aside to the main question.

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253.088 - 271.215 Owen Doyle

The question of what's been happening in France has been going on for over 20 years, because when I was there on the committee, European committee that appointed match officials and dealt with all these things, there were discussions with the French Federation and the leagues as to why this was happening.

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Chapter 6: How do referees and TMOs interact during a match?

271.195 - 291.758 Owen Doyle

Now, what is happening, in my view, is this, that if the TMO sees it, as I've just said, he will deal with it properly. And we've seen it 90 times in 100, it's dealt with properly. If he misses it and he doesn't go to the referee, Then it is up to the TV director to decide what he replays.

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292.559 - 311.445 Owen Doyle

Now, following this, I think it was yesterday or the day before, the French television said, hold on, we are not to blame. We will put up everything we're asked to put up. This is down to the TMO. If he wants something, we will give it to him. But if TMO has missed it, he's not going to say anything. So therefore, can we be a little bit suspicious?

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Chapter 7: What changes are needed to improve the TMO system in rugby?

311.425 - 333.989 Owen Doyle

that if it's a visiting team, that the French director will do nothing if something is missed. And if it's the home team, if it's against the home team, will he show it ad nauseum so that the TMO says, oh, I've missed that. We've got to see it. And then he calls the referee up and he says, we have to go back and have a look at that. And that's the difference.

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334.029 - 352.788 Owen Doyle

So the French television, they're being a little bit, they're being very clever with that answer. We will put up everything the TMO sees. And that goes back to the guys who are the TMOs. And I know most of them, they're all very, very good guys, but they haven't got anything like the experience to the referee to judge everything.

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352.828 - 359.995 Owen Doyle

And also, as far as I'm aware, looking at the television screen is two dimensional, whereas the referee on the pitch sees something in three dimensions.

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Chapter 8: What is the future of officiating in rugby amidst these controversies?

360.329 - 378.76 Nathan Johns

have they tried to fix that slightly in recent years? We see a lot less, a lot fewer specialist TMOs. We see like the referee from Saturday in the Viva, the TMO, Ian Tempest. He'd been, he had lots of experience as an on-pitch referee. Ben Whitehouse on Sunday in, in France, I think the weekend before, or maybe the weekend before that, he was refereeing Munster in, in, in Italy. Like,

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378.74 - 395.297 Nathan Johns

I'm trying to think of guys who would be to be in specialist TMOs. On the Irish scene, Brian McNeese was one. There was an English chap whose name he escaped. I can't remember his name, but we don't necessarily see those figures anymore. It tends to be guys who have been on the pitch who are in the truck.

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395.581 - 414.581 Owen Doyle

They're trying to go down that road, but a lot of former referees don't want to go down that road. I mean, Alain Roland was the prime example. He said, nothing in God's earth will get me into that booth. I do not want to do that job. There's a World Cup final referee being absolutely adamant it's going to have nothing to do with it. So a lot of them don't want to do it.

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414.961 - 433.785 Owen Doyle

People like Ben Whitehouse, great guys, are people who were tried at international level and actually didn't make it. They were tried at European level and didn't really make it. He refs in the URC. There's nothing against him. Everybody has their ceiling. That's where he's reffing, and the rest of his life he's in the TMO booth.

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434.426 - 454.874 Owen Doyle

But whatever happened, and I don't know if he missed it or if he missed those three instances. Now, Brian O'Driscoll made a very good point that the Luca thing was seen. There were two replays. So if there were two replays on that and he didn't deem it to be something he should refer back to the referee, then he's wrong on that one.

454.934 - 474.932 Owen Doyle

But on the other two, I mean, there was one offense, the second one was the worst that I saw. That was down to the TV director because he must have missed it. So if he's missed it and the TV director is saying, well, this is against the French team, I don't have to say anything or do anything unless I'm asked to do it by the TMO who's in control of the process. I'm not in control of the process.

475.292 - 483.642 Owen Doyle

As I said, it's a bit disingenuous. If it happened the other way around, I would better, my mortgage on it, that he would have shown it.

483.662 - 506.076 Nathan Johns

That's where the conspiratorial criticism of the faceless French TV director comes into it. But to me, whatever about intent, and obviously we're never going to know the intent of individuals in certain circumstances, but if we're putting that much responsibility into the hands of somebody who isn't a rugby official. To me, that seems bonkers.

506.116 - 523.665 Nathan Johns

I mean, I've read up a bit on this topic during the week and Will Kelleher writing in the London Times had a good explainer. Essentially, there are three different systems of getting images to the TMO. There's what we've seen on the weekend where the TMO can ask for things, but is ultimately reliant on a TV director.

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