Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Chapter 2: What led to the pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong?
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From The New York Times, I'm Michael Barbaro.
This is The Daily.
The pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong brought hundreds of thousands of people out into the streets in 2019. They demanded democracy and that China uphold the freedoms it had promised when it took back the British colony in the late 1990s.
For the first time since Beijing imposed a new security law on Hong Kong, police have carried out dozens of arrests and used water cannon and tear gas against protesters.
China responded by arresting thousands of protesters, including the leaders of the movement, like a man named Jimmy Lai. For decades, Lai had used his wealth and his newspaper to campaign for democracy. He was a constant thorn in the side of Beijing.
If I knew that I would end up like this in prison, would I have changed the way I run my life? And I realized that no, I wouldn't.
We interviewed Lai on the show in 2020, just after he was arrested.
Because I never did anything before intentionally, just naturally. So it must be my character. He was later found guilty of national security crimes.
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Chapter 3: Who is Jimmy Lai and why is he significant?
He used to have a bear.
He used to have a brown bear at home. So when he was doing Giordano... This is the clothing line he created before the newspapers. Exactly, a clothing line. He would have truck drivers. And one day, one of his truck drivers got sold a bear. Well, he thought it was a dog. He thought it was a puppy. So he went to my father and just was like, here, boss, this is a present for you.
And my dad was like, well, what do you want me to do with it? And it was one of those moments where, you know, they didn't want, you know, to call animal control, whatever it is to put it down. So, so dad kept the bear at home. And then eventually, you know, we got sent to a zoo and whatnot in Thailand, but for a period. Yeah. Yeah.
Uh, that does suggest a certain, a certain adventurousness.
Yeah.
He pushes boundaries.
Right.
Suddenly, you're living with a bear. Yes.
Yes. Yeah, he was... Well, he is. He's still a real rebel at heart.
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Chapter 4: What was the reaction to Jimmy Lai's sentencing?
To be completely honest, he didn't sing that well. But he liked to sing, and that's how you get better. And on this beautiful day in London, he's just singing in the park.
What was he singing? He was singing Ave Maria. Wow. Yeah. A difficult song for anyone.
Yes, yes.
That's very true.
You know, thinking back on that day, just my father, you know, the sun shining on him, saying I've been at the top of his lungs. Even at that age, I think I was maybe 14, 15. A thought came to me that it's what personal freedom looks like. You know, here's a man who loves life, who loves so many different elements of life. And when he escaped China, that was what he escaped for.
And it was a moment where I realized he had long achieved that. That he had the wealth, the status, the appreciation of someone that was free. Of someone that was truly free. And had he stayed there, had he stayed in London, you know he's a British citizen, he's got a British passport, he would have had personal freedom. But despite that, said that, actually...
I can't just be a person who lives for my own pleasure.
And you were starting to understand that even as, it sounds like, a teenager. Yeah. That your dad was a man who could have lived, if he chose to, in a state of constant indulgence. You know, his whole life could have been essentially walking through a very beautiful park singing. And instead, he chose a very different life with a great deal more risk and struggle.
Yeah, I think he chose a life that, instead of life that would have been outwardly beautiful, he chose one of inward beauty. One that, you know, has landed him in the Hong Kong prison.
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Chapter 5: How has Jimmy Lai's imprisonment affected his family?
So I still remember that. I mean, you know, nothing compared to what dad was doing, which he was literally on the front lines.
Was he encouraging you to get involved in the protests? No.
I don't think it was something that he needed encouraging. I think, you know, at that point we realized that we're fighting for these freedoms for our home and for our kids and their kids. You felt like you were part of something that was bigger than yourself.
Of course, after the 2014 protests, which died down for some period of time, by 2019, they are in full blossom once again. People are out in the streets. And those protests end up centering around this now infamous national security law that starts to take freedoms away in a pretty formal way.
And I have to imagine that in the back of your head in that period, you're starting to wonder what all this means for your father. What was for you the first sign that Chinese authorities might be coming for your dad?
I think it was the brutality by some of the police officers and the crackdowns on a lot of the protests. The phrase I'll use is kind of overzealousness. There was a kind of a social contract that was broken between the people of Hong Kong and the police at that point. This was new? Yeah, this was new. And then from there, obviously, the actual passing of the National Security Law.
And obviously, many people told dad to leave at that point because, I mean, everybody kind of knew that he was one of the main targets.
That that law seemed to have his name written all over it.
That it was kind of like, you know, almost tailor-made for him, so to speak.
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Chapter 6: What does Sebastien Lai share about his father's character?
To be honest, we just talk about, you know, what's happening in my life, family, you know, what he's doing at the moment. And a lot of it is reading. And a lot of it is drawing, these kind of religious drawings. He's a very strong Catholic. So he draws pictures of Christ, of Mother Maria. You know, that's his way of sort of being in touch with his faith.
And you can imagine if you're in solitude and finding it's just between you and God. And it's, yeah, I mean, it's very moving.
Do you know if he still sings?
That's a good question, actually. I don't know. I don't know.
I mean, are you wondering... if there's really any chance you're ever going to see him again? Or does it feel to you like you really have lost your dad in all of this?
You know, I've been campaigning on his behalf for the last few years. And when you do these things, you just have to be hopeful. But yeah, it's very distressing. Because I just don't know when it is that I'm going to get a text to tell me that something bad has happened to him. But until then, I'll keep fighting until he's freed.
What, in your mind, is the scenario in which he is freed? Is it Western leaders negotiating his release?
Yeah, it's to put pressure on both Hong Kong and China. And the thing is, there's no... There's no upside for China to keep him in there anymore. And if the idea of China is this place, as they would say themselves, of quote-unquote stability, of being a superpower, well, torturing a 78-year-old man, it's counter to what they hope to achieve.
But you know this well, and I don't mean to diminish what is no doubt such an agonizing situation for you, but what China accomplishes by doing what they're doing to your father is telling everyone in Hong Kong that protest is futile. Because look what we can do. Look what we have done to one of the richest and most powerful men in the city.
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Chapter 7: How did Sebastien Lai experience the protests in Hong Kong?
That's it for The Daily. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you on Sunday.