Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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We have a breaking news alert for you. It's finally here. The Supreme Court has made a decision on President Trump's tariffs. This is a huge case, a big ruling.
Today, in a historic 6-3 decision, the Supreme Court has ruled that President Trump's sweeping global tariffs are illegal, jeopardizing a pillar of the president's second term.
It is invalidating what is the cornerstone of President Trump's economic policy, sweeping implications for the economy and, of course, for presidential power. This is a massive, devastating and consequential blow for this administration. It's also a rare rebuke.
I spoke with my colleague, Adam Liptak, about the legal logic of the ruling and its potentially seismic impacts. It's Friday, February 20th. Adam, thank you for taking time to speak with us today on a very busy news day.
It's good to be here.
So we're coming to you on a Friday afternoon because something quite extraordinary has happened on the Supreme Court. The court has struck down many of President Trump's tariffs. These tariffs aren't just at the core of his economic policy. They are also the tool that he has used to wield just enormous power across the world. They have been his main source of leverage.
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Chapter 2: What was the Supreme Court's decision on Trump's tariffs?
And it's always been a stretch because this law doesn't include the word tariffs or a synonym like duties. Instead, it's kind of a word salad that includes a lot of words. And the administration is focused on two of those words, the regulation of importation. And even those words are separated by 16 other words.
And Chief Justice Roberts, writing for six justices, says that just doesn't bear the weight. that the administration wants to place on it, that Congress has the power to tax, and tariffs are, of course, an import tax, and Congress, if it wants to authorize the president, can, but it didn't here.
And regulation is not the same as taxation, Chief Justice Roberts says, so he thinks this is a fairly straightforward grammatical exercise.
The chief justice, you're saying, is basically doing a close reading of this statute and saying if you look at the actual language in it, it does not authorize the president to wield this kind of power, to impose these kinds of tariffs.
That's right. And five justices agree with him.
Right. And to that point, Adam, this was a 6-3 decision. And what stood out to me as I was looking through the opinions on this was that the conservatives on the court were split. Can you tell me about that? Because that seemed very important.
Yeah, so we're used to 6-3 decisions, right, Natalie? But the usual 6-3 decision is the six Republican appointees versus the three Democratic appointees. Right. Here we have the Chief Justice and two Trump appointees, Justices Gorsuch and Barrett, joining the liberals. And then in dissent, Justices Thomas, Alito, and Kavanaugh. This kind of mix and match,
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Chapter 3: What are the implications of the ruling for President Trump's economic policy?
In a truly consequential case, and this, to be clear, Natalie, this is a major, major statement on presidential power. And to see the right side of the court disagree is quite unusual.
Okay. I want to understand that, the substance of the disagreement between the conservatives on this, because it might not surprise people that the liberals were not backing Trump's ability to use presidential power in this way. Help me understand how the conservatives disagreed.
It's really a different conception of the separation of powers, right? The conservatives led by the Chief Justice, who thought Congress did not authorize these tariffs, think Congress has the leading role in this area. Congress has the power to tax. And if Congress is going to tell the president he can do something, it has to say so clearly, not by inference, but in plain language.
The other three conservatives in dissent were much more willing to... infer from the structure of the Constitution and from the duties of the president to believe that the president has power in this area, even if this statute maybe is not as clear as it might be.
And I think there's a passage in Justice Neil Gorsuch's concurring opinion that kind of crystallizes and explains the nature of the dispute. He says, yes, it can be tempting to bypass Congress when some pressing problem arises. But the deliberative nature of the legislative process was the whole point of its design.
Through that process, the nation can tap the combined wisdom of the people's elected representatives, not just that of one faction or man. Now, obviously, he's not mentioning President Trump, but the music of that really nice prose does hint at someone who is using tariffs impulsively.
And what he's saying there, and I want you to just translate it for me to put a fine point on it, is the legislative process may be cumbersome, but it is valuable and it should have been applied here.
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Chapter 4: What legal logic did Adam Liptak explain regarding the Supreme Court's ruling?
Right. There's a value to deliberation. There's a value to consensus. There's a value to buy-in. And there's a value to letting people know what the rules are rather than governing by impulse and whim.
OK, I want to turn to the practical implications of this decision. And I know we're just beginning to digest what all of this means. But I want to ask you, Adam, some of the questions that I think people are asking urgently at this moment, chief among them. What happens to the tariffs now? Are they gone?
So the tariffs that were imposed under this 1977 law are gone. That's not every tariff President Trump has imposed. It's tariffs that he justified by trying to address the drug trade and tariffs he tried to impose to address trade deficits, but tariffs under other laws remain in place. So this is not a complete answer. It's not up or down tariffs, yes or no, but it does take out
in the short term at least, a great bulk of his terrorist program.
Okay, but Adam, we also had Trump give this press conference just a little while ago, which was, even by his standards, quite strident. And in his comments, he said he was going to double down, actually, on these tariffs that had just been ruled illegal. He said he'd found an avenue to revive them using other authorities. So, first of all, what did you think of the press conference?
And second, what do we know about his efforts to find a solution to the problem the court has presented him with?
Well, thank you very much for being here.
So it was an extraordinarily combative press conference.
And I'm ashamed of certain members of the court, absolutely ashamed, for not having the courage to do what's right.
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Chapter 5: How did the Supreme Court's decision affect presidential power?
And if this news conference is any guide, get lectured to by the president about how they have been disloyal and unpatriotic by ruling against him. And it may capture and illustrate a clash between two branches of the government in a way we've never seen before.
Well, Adam, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Thank you, Natalie.
For more insights from Adam Liptack on the most urgent legal developments of the moment, sign up for his newsletter, The Docket. Today's episode was produced by Rob Zipko and Carlos Prieto with help from Ricky Nowetzki. It was edited by Devin Taylor. Contains music by Dan Powell and was engineered by Dan Powell. That's it for The Daily. I'm Natalie Kittroff. See you on Sunday.