Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Andrew Ross Sorkin, the founder of Dealbook. Every year, I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the Dealbook Summit, a live event in New York City. On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk.
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From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.
Chapter 2: What authority does President Trump claim for imposing tariffs?
On Wednesday, the Supreme Court heard arguments in the biggest case of its term about whether the president has the authority to impose the highest tariffs the country has seen in a century. Today, my colleague Adam Liptak explains why the court seemed like it might be willing to say no to this president. It's Thursday, November 6th. Hi, Adam.
Hello, Rachel.
Thanks for being with us today. It was obviously a very busy day for the Supreme Court, which was taking up one of Trump's signature policies, tariffs. Just to start, can you walk us through what was at stake in this case?
So this is easily the most closely watched case of the term. It involves President Trump's central signature initiative, tariffs.
Chapter 3: Why might the Supreme Court be skeptical of Trump's tariffs?
And it's also the court's biggest confrontation yet. with the scope of executive power in the second Trump administration. And the question in the case was huge. It was whether or not Congress has authorized President Trump to pursue tariffs, which are his main lever in international relations, and he says, protecting the nation's security.
And just to be really clear, Adam, why would the president not have the authority to impose tariffs?
Article 1 of the Constitution, which lays out Congress's powers, is quite clear that the power to tax and tariffs are a form of taxation, and the power to regulate international commerce is for Congress. And Congress can let the president have part of its authority, but this is a situation in which
The Constitution is quite clear that Congress needs to authorize this kind of activity, that this is not something the president can do without that authorization.
But Trump obviously imposed tariffs in his first term. So why was that allowed to stand?
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Chapter 4: What are the constitutional implications of the tariff case?
And yet these tariffs in the second term are being so contested.
There are laws that allow the president to impose tariffs in limited situations, laws that specifically use the word tariffs and authorize the president to take action. But those were limited actions in the first Trump term. In the second Trump term, President Trump announces that he is going to use tariffs in a much more aggressive, wide-ranging, global way.
And for that authority, he turned to a different statute, IEPA, the International Emergency Economic Powers Act of 1977. And as the statute says, it's meant for emergencies.
And remind us, Adam, what was the emergency that the president was claiming to justify these tariffs?
The president identified two emergencies. One, he says fentanyl is entering the country and he needs to take action against Mexico, Canada, and China.
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Chapter 5: How does the International Emergency Economic Powers Act relate to tariffs?
And the other, he says it's an emergency that we've had persistent trade deficits, and that requires tariffs against almost the entire globe. But a bunch of small businesses affected by the tariffs And several states took a different view and said that the statute he invoked, this IEPA statute, did not authorize the tariffs that he wants to impose.
And they sued, and the cases they filed went to the Supreme Court.
So let's talk about the arguments today. I listened to them also, and they were pretty expansive. They stretched for almost three hours, and a lot of time was spent really digging into the statute that you mentioned, IEPA. So where do you think we should begin?
Yeah, so I think it probably makes sense to spend a minute discussing with the statute, because it does say that if there is a national emergency of the kind we were talking about, Rachel, the president may prescribe by means of instructions, licenses, or otherwise, and that it says a bunch of things he can do.
Chapter 6: What emergencies did Trump cite to justify the tariffs?
Like there's 15 verbs. He can investigate, he can block, he can regulate, he can nullify, he can void, he can prohibit. the importation or exportation of various goods. But it doesn't include the word tariff or any similar word, duty, tax, impost.
And it's an open question whether it authorizes the president to impose any tariffs, much less the expansive, aggressive ones that he instituted at the beginning of his second term. We will hear argument this morning in case 24-12-87, learning resources versus Trump. So when the court heard arguments... Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the court.
The administration's lawyer focused on two key words. The phrase regulate importation plainly embraces tariffs, which are among the most traditional and direct methods of regulating importation. This enormous string of verbs.
Chapter 7: What is the major questions doctrine and its significance in this case?
He says what's important here is the president can regulate... The power to impose tariffs is a core application of the power to regulate foreign commerce, which is what the phrase regulate importation and IEPA naturally evokes. And that's a central question for the justices. Do you get from regulation of importation to tariffs?
Because the idea here being the statute doesn't actually include explicit instructions that the president can tax or tariff. So the government is making the argument that regulate includes the ability to tax and tariff.
Right. And Mr. Katyal? Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the court.
The challengers say... Tariffs are taxes.
Chapter 8: How do tariffs impact domestic and foreign policy?
They take dollars from Americans' pockets and deposit them in the U.S. Treasury. Our founders gave that taxing power to Congress alone.
Hey, if that's true, it would give the president enormous power if you read regulate to include the power to tax.
It's simply implausible that in enacting IEPA, Congress handed the president the power to overhaul the entire tariff system and the American economy in the process, allowing him to set... That there are any number of ways in which the statute actually at issue in the case does not confer the power to impose tariffs.
It's just not there, he says.
So Adam, talk a little bit about how the justices drilled down into what the statute said.
So it has a lot of verbs. It has a lot of actions that can be taken under this statute. It just doesn't have the one you want. So part of the argument turns into a kind of grammar seminar. Really trying to understand not so much what the purpose of the statute was, but just what the words mean. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, for instance, said,
Other places where Congress wants that particular form of regulation to be used, they say impose duties. They say you can tax, Mr. President. Here they don't say that. that Congress knows how to authorize tariffs. Congress does that all the time. And you look at all the tariff statutes that Congress has passed.
I mean, they use language about revenue raising, tariffs and duties and taxes, all the language that does not appear in the statute you rely on. Several justices make the point that the absence of the word tariffs or synonyms, duties, taxes, imposts, is significant.
Right. It almost felt like the liberal justices were trying to speak the languages that we often hear from conservative justices, which is to stick to an extremely literal interpretation of the text.
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