Over the past few weeks, users of the video app TikTok braced themselves for a national ban to take effect.This weekend, the app went dark. But less than 24 hours later, it came back. And it credited President-elect Donald J. Trump with flicking the switch.Sapna Maheshwari, who covers TikTok for The Times, discusses the biggest social media ban in American history — and whether the incoming president can actually stop it.Guests: Sapna Maheshwari, a reporter covering TikTok, technology and emerging media companies for The New York Times.Background reading: TikTok flickered back to life after Mr. Trump said he would stall a ban.What we know about the TikTok ban.For more information on today’s episode, visit nytimes.com/thedaily. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
Chapter 1: What happened when TikTok went dark?
I made so many friends and memories on here. I'm going to miss you guys so much.
And I'm really going to miss it. And I'm really going to miss you.
For a national ban to take effect.
This weekend, it did. And the app went dark.
Say bye. Hopefully we have a miracle and we get to keep TikTok, but it's not looking good for us.
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Chapter 2: Who was responsible for bringing TikTok back?
But less than 24 hours later, it came back, crediting Donald Trump with flicking the switch.
Thank you, soon-to-be President Trump. I know I'm happy to be back. I'm sure a lot of you guys are as well. I love you guys, and I will see you in the next one.
Today, my colleague Sapna Maheshwari on the biggest social media ban in American history and whether Trump can actually stop it.
It's Monday, January 20th.
Sapna, welcome back to The Daily. Thanks for having me. So we're talking on Sunday afternoon, and this morning, millions of Americans woke up to find that TikTok, the video platform with 170 million users, was no longer working. The U.S. government ban that's been talked about for months was finally here. But then, as we were preparing to tape this episode with you, the app went back online.
You are a TikTok expert. Help us understand what's going on here.
So yes, it was a huge deal last night when TikTok went dark. It stopped working for people. Nobody knew what was happening. And you saw people posting tearful goodbye videos at first. Then you couldn't see anything. You saw the app store just start changing as people started rushing to this new Chinese app called Red Note.
You saw people posting to Instagram on Instagram Reels on Blue Sky Instagram. just turning to everywhere they could to share how stunned and shocked they were.
Essentially fleeing the app because they could no longer post there.
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Chapter 3: What led to the TikTok ban in the U.S.?
But yeah, if you haven't heard, we're back now. Just ignore the last week of everything I've been saying.
And people have been freaking out. They're really excited.
And mind you, I slept through it.
But the situation is really fluid. We don't know what's going to happen. We're talking early afternoon Sunday. And when I wake up tomorrow, I really don't know what the situation will be.
Chapter 4: What are the national security concerns surrounding TikTok?
OK, so let's talk about how we got here. And I'll remind listeners that TikTok is owned by ByteDance, which is a Chinese company. It had tried to fight the ban all the way to the Supreme Court. Tell us what happened.
Right. So last year, Congress passed this law saying that TikTok had to be sold by ByteDance, their owner, to a non-Chinese company. And this law offered this deadline to make sure that ByteDance and TikTok did it, said it has to be sold by January 19th or some sort of talks have to be underway or the company will face a ban in the United States.
And what was the thinking behind making it sell the company?
So for years, lawmakers have had these national security concerns around TikTok. They're kind of in two camps. One, they've said that U.S. user data could be handed over to the Chinese government based on laws that apply to companies in China. The other piece of it is lawmakers have said that there's a chance that TikTok could spread Chinese propaganda online.
to millions of Americans without their knowledge. And the governments had these concerns for years dating back to at least 2020. And this is the first time they really passed a law that was going to do something about it.
And the company, as I remember from your telling, actually objected on the basis of free speech, that free speech meant that it should be allowed to continue operating. But on Friday, as you're saying, the Supreme Court actually decided against the company and upheld the ban, which, of course, brings us to the situation we found ourselves in this morning.
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Chapter 5: How did the Supreme Court influence TikTok's fate?
That's right. TikTok said from when this legislation was first introduced that they would beat it, that it was unconstitutional, that it violated the free speech rights of TikTok users in America. And they gambled all the way to the Supreme Court.
And astoundingly, the Supreme Court decided on Friday unanimously that the government had the right to implement this law and to ban TikTok if it didn't sell.
And so what happened after the court made that decision?
The court comes out with this decision on Friday, January 17th. This law is supposed to go into effect two days later on January 19th. So Saturday night, users of TikTok start seeing this pop-up message appear. And it says that specifically, we are fortunate that President Trump has indicated that he will work with us on a solution.
So TikTok is saying that Trump is going to fix their situation, which is kind of confusing because Trump was against TikTok in his first administration.
That's right. This is a complete turnaround from how Trump felt about TikTok in 2020.
We're looking at TikTok. We may be banning TikTok. We may be doing some other things. There are a couple of options.
So if you rewind your memories back then, Trump was very anti-TikTok.
And here's the deal. I don't mind if, whether it's Microsoft or somebody else, a big company, a secure company, very American company, buy it.
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Chapter 6: What has changed in Trump’s stance on TikTok?
OK, so this was the moment of Trump's full conversion to TikTok.
Yeah, and it leads to kind of the summer of Trump on TikTok, as I thought of it.
The president is now on TikTok. It's my honor.
He joins TikTok itself and becomes this huge hit in about June of last year.
No tax on kids, by the way, no tax on kids.
It was a total sensation. He got three million followers in a single day.
POV, 100 days left before President Trump delivers another knockout.
It goes way past Biden, who's the nominee at the time.
We're nation in decline. Nobody is safe. Absolutely nobody. We're going to be a strong nation again.
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Chapter 7: Who is behind TikTok's efforts to stay in the U.S. market?
A lot of people have found that to be maybe not the most serious offer for what TikTok could really be worth, which some analysts have said, you know, around $100 billion or more.
Wow. So the algorithm is critical to the value of the company. And we still, at this point, don't know whether China is willing to let go of it.
That's right. It's been the huge question mark hanging over this from the very beginning. And there has been a lot of signaling happening. And this is where it's gotten really interesting. The CEO of TikTok, Shou Chius, has said he wants to figure something out.
And Trump posted something last week, the same day of the Supreme Court ruling, where he said he'd just gotten off the phone with President Xi Jinping from China, saying that they had a long discussion and TikTok was on the list of things that they want to solve together. We're also seeing that Trump has developed a little bit of a relationship with the CEO of TikTok.
He's invited him to the inauguration, and the Chinese vice president is also attending the inauguration. Yeah.
Sabna, what is that? What is Trump doing there? I mean, inviting the CEO of TikTok to attend his inauguration?
I mean, it seems to be a clear sign of support for TikTok. From the public statements that Trump has been making in the past week, he wants to be seen as the savior of TikTok, the person behind bringing this app to Americans and giving them something that brings them joy from day one of his presidency.
OK, so both sides here are really signaling that they want a deal, Trump and China. But each side seems to have a different vision of what a potential fix through that deal would be. Right. Like for China, presumably a deal might be OK if it didn't include the algorithm.
That's right. And I mean, it really raises the question of what else could be involved in these negotiations. I mean, up until now, the positions have been pretty clear. No export of the algorithm, otherwise no TikTok in the U.S. And so what kinds of elements could be brought into this negotiation, into this discussion to get TikTok running in the U.S. again? We really don't know.
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