Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
This is Andrew Ross Sorkin, the founder of Dealbook. Every year, I interview some of the world's most influential leaders across politics, culture, and business at the Dealbook Summit, a live event in New York City. On this year's podcast, you'll hear my unfiltered conversations with Gavin Newsom, the CEO of Palantir and Anthropic, and Erica Kirk, the widow of Charlie Kirk.
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From The New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams, and this is The Daily.
Chapter 2: What sparked the global outcry over the leaked peace plan for Ukraine?
When a U.S. peace plan to end the war in Ukraine was leaked last week, it looked, to many, like it had been written by Russia. And to a large degree, it had been. And it sparked a global outcry that has forced American officials to backtrack, revise, and rethink their approach in the days since.
Today, my colleagues Kim Barker and David Sanger on the backroom process that led to the controversial plan and why it comes at a vulnerable moment for Ukraine's leader. It's Wednesday, November 26th. Before we start, I just have one question, Kim. What is that hat?
Oh, this is like this crazy hat that is made of feathers.
Chapter 3: How do Ukrainians perceive the leaked peace plan's alignment with Russian demands?
I love it. I had lost it for a long time and I just found it. So that's the hat I'm wearing now. Oh, my God. It looks great.
I couldn't tell if it was actually like one of those Soviet type hats that is like very furry and very warm.
It'll be coming with me back to Kiev. Amazing. It's cold there, man. I've heard. I've heard. Kim Barker, welcome to the show.
Chapter 4: What are the current challenges facing Ukrainian leadership amid the peace plan controversy?
Thanks very much for having me.
So there has been a lot of news about the war in Ukraine this past week and a possible peace plan that might actually end it. But this is not the first time that we have heard about plans to end the war. And it is kind of hard to tell at this point what is real movement and what is not. So we're turning to you to try to understand what's happened. You've spent a lot of time in Ukraine.
You've covered the war. What do you make of what has happened in the past few days?
Yeah, it's been very confusing and a bit of whiplash in Ukraine as well with what happened last Thursday when this 28-point peace plan was leaked. And all of a sudden, everybody in Ukraine is looking at this peace plan and they're looking at every single point and saying to themselves, this sounds an awful lot like Russian talking points, like everything Russia ever wanted.
But then at the same time, they're hearing that this is an American plan, and there's a lot of pressure for Ukraine to accept it right away. And you have to understand the situation on the ground right now. You've got people who are very tired of this war going on for years.
And I think a lot of Ukrainians, if you were to ask them, they would say, yes, let's get some sort of peace deal that's not too bad for Ukraine, right? They would like to get something. But at the same time, you've got this issue along the front lines where you've got not enough troops.
And then you've got on a nightly basis this barrage of missiles and drones coming in and attacking civilian targets.
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Chapter 5: What role does corruption play in the context of Ukraine's political situation?
Given all of that, it makes total sense why Ukrainians would be so desperate to end the war. But you also mentioned this peace plan that was leaked that has seemed to at least initially heavily favor Russia. And I just wonder, given that, how did Ukrainians react to it?
I mean, universally, the word that we heard over and over again was capitulation. I heard it from people who were waiting for their relatives, their dead relatives to be taken out of this building that had been hit by missiles a couple days before. Capitulation and disgust. And the idea that like, no, we have lost too much blood.
The idea that we're just going to give up everything we've been fighting for, for nothing.
Mm-hmm.
No. And also, at the same time, you have to understand that this proposal is coming along when Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky could not be in a weaker position politically because of this corruption scandal, you know, that's unfolded in the last couple of weeks. So tell us about that. Where does that story start?
Well, that story starts about 15 months ago when an investigation called Operation Midas started into a company called Energo Atom,
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Chapter 6: How did the anti-corruption investigation impact public sentiment in Ukraine?
which is this nuclear power giant in Ukraine. And it's a state-owned company. And the country's anti-corruption agencies have been investigating this company for about 15 months. They've got wiretaps of like more than a thousand hours. And they're basically looking at Key allies of President Zelensky who are accused of embezzling $100 million from this company.
And it first comes out into public knowledge on Monday morning, November 10th, when the country's anti-corruption agencies unveiled the series of videos outlining a huge corruption scheme and their investigation work. And then over the next two days, these videos unroll every few hours, giving more and more salacious details. NABU and SAP conduct the MEDAS operation.
And they feature a detective who's very well lit, very well produced. And you're listening to it and you're feeling like, oh, this is dramatic. Something's happening here. And then you go into these sort of like wiretapped conversations of these people who have given themselves code names like Rocket and Sugar Man and Che Guevara and The Professor.
And you learn through these videos that some of the money that these guys are making is coming from money that was supposed to be spent to build shelters, to protect things like nuclear power substations and power transformers and things like that from Russian missiles and drones. And each episode ends with something like, you know, more to come and to be continued.
And it really has got Ukrainians glued to their phones.
So it sounds like basically, if I have this right, this anti-corruption agency is releasing almost like a mini-series about this scandal to the public?
Yeah, I mean, I made that joke in the very beginning to an editor.
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Chapter 7: What was the reaction of Ukrainian citizens to the corruption scandal?
I'm like, it kind of feels like Netflix. And then started looking at all the sort of social media that was being put out there, and it's exactly what Ukrainians were saying last night. You had like the memes of Bill Hader eating popcorn, waiting for the next thing to drop. And you had this sense that, oh, my God, is this going to actually reach the president?
Is this going to reach the president's chief of staff? Who is going to be on these tapes next?
I'm obviously no expert in Ukrainian anti-corruption investigations, but at least in the United States, that kind of announcement would be a bit unusual. Why would they release videos like this as opposed to just, I don't know, a press conference?
Yeah, I mean, in the States, anywhere really, you would have a lawyer standing behind a lectern and like reading out the charges, or maybe they would just be filed in paper. You wouldn't have this sense of like, we're going to have a promotional series of videos around our investigation before we've even brought anybody to court. Right. It's very unusual.
I mean, one of the goals clearly could be to inoculate the agencies against any sort of blowback from the president's office. They get the people on their side. They get an audience. And that seemed to be happening over the first couple of days. Tell me more about that. What was the reaction from Ukrainians to these videos? They were horrified.
People are making money off of shelters that are supposed to protect us from Russian missile and drone attack, especially when you have us going into a winter right now where... It's pretty touch and go with the power situation. Russia has really been targeting all these places that generate power. And you've got blackouts going pretty much around the clock.
So there's a sense of indignation hearing these people, hearing these men talk on these wiretaps about making money off of this. It's gross. It's disgusting. And Ukrainians were quite upset. You know, Zelensky rode into office on anti-corruption pledges. Right. And there is a war. There is a war that means that it's martial law.
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Chapter 8: How did the U.S. administration's approach to the peace plan evolve after the backlash?
You can't elect somebody new. And this is their president. They want the country to hold together. But for the first time, you had the sense that opposition was forming against Zelensky. You had the sense that the political parties were getting together. There were calls for a vote of no confidence in parliament. What is Zelensky's response been to the scandal?
I mean, Zelensky's response to the scandal has been, look, if there's anybody guilty of corruption in this administration or anywhere, they should pay in court. Anybody who
commits corruption needs to face the consequences right but he has not been specific about these charges he's not talked about his allies who have been accused of this his chief of staff after these accusations first appeared disappeared for more than five days which was highly unusual so it felt like the administration was just kind of going quiet seeing if it was going to blow over and
And then they would figure it out. But it was not blowing over. It was not blowing over at all. It was snowballing until this peace plan leaked. And this peace plan was very beneficial to Russia. In fact, it looked as if Russia had written some of the proposals. Among them, Ukraine would never be able to join NATO, ever. Ukraine would permanently have to have a smaller military.
Ukraine would have to cede territory that Russia hadn't even won yet. All of these being non-starters, basically, for Ukraine. All of these are non-starters, especially the idea of having a smaller military. If you look at the history of how Russia has been trying to take a bite of Ukraine there, a bite of Ukraine here, right? Like, it's not going to happen. People are not going to accept that.
But also, at the same time, there was a lot of pressure coming from America, like, make this deal, sign this deal, accept this peace. And like, let's move on. And you have this sense that maybe this peace plan was coming out. Maybe it was being pushed because Zelensky looked so weak that he had no choice but to accept it. But that is not what happened. Instead, it was the opposite.
Ukrainians, Ukrainians.
Zelensky came out and he's returning to his early wartime president sort of disposition where he's doing these videos and he's very serious and he's telling the country that he can face a very difficult election or a loss of dignity or a risk of losing a key partner. They have a choice right now. It's one of the toughest choices they've had.
Are we going to sacrifice our dignity, or are we going to be willing to lose this key partner, that partner being the United States?
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