A Radical Vision for Israelis and Palestinians
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hi, it's Michael Sullivan from Wirecutter, the product recommendation service from The New York Times. And today we're in the kitchen testing canned tomatoes. We're tasting for sweetness, acidity, definitely the color, the texture. These tomatoes, they're pretty velvety, like they break apart easily with a spoon. The guides that we write are living, breathing things. It's a piece of fruit in a can, so it's going to change every year. At Wirecutter, we do the work so you don't have to. For independent product reviews and recommendations for the real world, come visit us at nytimes.com slash Wirecutter.
So I've been reluctant on the show to talk too much about imagined solutions for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I don't think any of the underlying conditions for political solution are present.
19 new settlements in the occupied West Bank. More than 81% of Gaza's buildings are at least partially damaged. So many other Palestinian families are living with the threat of demolition.
We're in a pre-solutionary space. And I worry about it as a form of escapism. It's more comfortable to debate two-state models or one-state imaginings rather than confront the realities of what is happening right now. But the other problem, the other reason I have kind of backed off of these conversations is that the old solutions don't fit the present reality. I don't see how a two-state solution is still possible, given the number and size of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. They're not going away. Or the insistence on a right of return for Palestinians. I don't think a one-state solution is plausible or likely. The Jewish people in Israel and around it, they want self-determination and sovereignty.
So too do the Palestinians. Neither side, given their history, is going to give the other willingly that kind of power. But a number of people, people I trust, have written to me saying, I should look at the land-for-all plan. Land for All was founded in 2012 by a group of Israelis and Palestinians, and it's attempting something different, something I find in some ways beautiful. Not a two-state model of separation, not a one-state model of unification, but this confederation model that centers both people's connections to the land and tries to combine the free movement of people with separated political entities. In this model, you would have an Israel and a Palestine. There'd be free movement, but political separation.
The borders would be open, but they say, hopefully, secure. There's a lot to unpack about all this. I have a lot of questions about it. I would describe my own thinking here as intrigued, not convinced. But I do think it is worth considering a new political vision. Even I think we're far from the conditions that might make one possible. I mean, if you don't have any idea of where you're going, how do you get there? Rula Hardal is a Palestinian citizen of Israel who received her doctorate in political science from the University of Hanover in Germany. Mai Pundak is an Israeli lawyer, activist, and social entrepreneur. Her father, Ron Pundak, was an Israeli historian who played an important role in the Oslo peace process in the 1990s.
They're the co-directors of Land for All, and so I wanted to ask them both about the plan, but also about the politics and questions and social forces that have undermined every other plan. As always, my email, ezraklineshow at mytimes.com. Rula Hardal, Mike Pundak, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Thank you. So I think that people listening are familiar with the two-state solution concept, an Israel and a Palestine separated and side by side. People have heard ideas for a single state where you would have people throughout the territory, throughout the land, all voting within the same political system. I don't think that they tend to be as familiar with what you're offering, this confederation model.
So, Mai, let me begin with you. How does this differ from the two-state solution that has been pursued for so long?
So, first of all, let me say we are offering what we call a new vision.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
0:00–5:10
2
What are the limitations of the two-state and one-state solutions?
5:10–13:23
3
How does the 'A Land for All' initiative propose to address the conflict?
13:23–14:06
4
What is the confederation model and how does it work?
14:06–18:50
5
How can open borders contribute to peace between Israelis and Palestinians?
18:50–37:13
6
How can transitional justice facilitate reconciliation?
37:13–43:55
7
What are the challenges of implementing the proposed vision?
43:55–49:15
8
What books can provide further insight into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
49:15–1:25:49