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The Ezra Klein Show

The Breaking of the Constitutional Order

05 Feb 2025

Transcription

Full Episode

5.495 - 50.239 Ezra Klein

From New York Times Opinion, this is The Ezra Klein Show. Over the weekend, President Donald Trump announced 25% tariffs on Mexico and Canada. The markets reacted with shock. We were really doing this? Didn't Trump's Wall Street backers tell us again and again this was all just a negotiating ploy? And then Mexico said that it would add 10,000 troops to the border.

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50.999 - 71.184 Ezra Klein

And Canada said it would appoint a fentanyl czar, and they noted efforts they were already making on the border. And Trump delayed the tariffs by a month in both cases. So how to read this? Did Trump back down in the face of market turmoil? Did he get what he wanted, even though what he got wasn't very much, was mostly things that Mexico and Canada were already doing?

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71.204 - 89.161 Ezra Klein

Are we going to have this happen again in a month and maybe every month after that? I don't think anybody actually knows, very much including Donald Trump. What seems clear here is that Trump likes tariffs, but he dislikes political pain. He wants to be seen as in control. He wants the world bending to his will.

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89.821 - 107.393 Ezra Klein

But the stock market plummeting does not make it look like the world is bending to his will. The stock market plummeting threatens his control. And so when other countries see that, their strategy is going to come clearer. The more Trump bullies other nations, the more they will band together in retaliation, and the more that will batter markets.

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108.234 - 127.242 Ezra Klein

The world does not want to be endlessly pushed around by Donald Trump. Actions create reactions. So yeah, Trump has the power to impose tariffs, but he does not have the power to impose them without paying a price. And so far, at least, he does not seem to want to pay that price. Domestically, Elon Musk is trying to remake the federal government.

128.022 - 132.302 Ezra Klein

I was going to say by fiat, but it's not even by anything as official as that.

133.023 - 152.566 Ezra Klein

His people have pushed their way into the Treasury Department's payment systems, putting the longtime civil servant in charge of that system on leave when he wouldn't give a bunch of Musk's deputies access to a system that, and I really think it's important to understand this, a system that virtually nobody even in the Treasury Department has access to because it contains so much private data.

153.246 - 174.978 Ezra Klein

because it presents such severe cybersecurity risks, and because something going wrong in it would throw government payments into complete chaos. And that's been far from their only move. The really splashy, aggressive thing they did over the past couple of days was that Musk's team announced that they were closing down USAID, the foreign aid agency created by Congress decades ago.

176.018 - 190.565 Ezra Klein

They don't have the authority to close down USAID. And so I agree with Lauren de Jong Schulman, a former Office of Management and Budget official, who wrote that the way to talk about this is not to say something anodyne and settled, like they got passwords to the payment system or they closed down USAID.

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