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Chapter 1: What were the challenges Gareth Southgate faced as England manager?
We go to a penalty shootout. For us, in that moment, it was about the process that gives us the best percentage chance of winning. A friend of ours had looked after the dog, and he's thrown up all over the bedroom floor. Now, bear in mind, the Spanish manager's currently in Madrid on an open-top bus. I go over to support the fans. They're lobbing beer at me.
If the joy's gone, then you're going to find it hard to give that feeling that you need to give the players.
Sir Gareth Southgate managed England through eight years, four tournaments, two finals, and in the course of it became the most successful England manager since 1966. But by the end of his tenure, fans were turning on him in the stadiums. The media had decided that he was the problem. His family stayed at home because he didn't want them in those environments.
What Gareth shares in this rich, revealing conversation is something that you rarely hear from a leader at that level. He doesn't offer spin or excuses, but instead an honest account of what it costs to hold the line when the crowd has decided it's already moved on.
He talks about how he managed the voice in his head, why he shared his 1996 penalty miss with his players, and the single moment when he realised that the joy of the job had gone. It was that moment. More than any result is what told him it was time to leave. This is one of those rich, revealing conversations that just gets better and better every time you come back to it.
I'd like to welcome Sir Gareth Southgate to High Performance.
I'd got to a stage where the FA were very keen for me to stay. They offered me a new contract. I didn't think signing a new contract before the tournament would be a good idea because I'd seen Fabio Capello do that years earlier and it created a tension. Well, why is he getting a new contract before the tournament? It should be after and...
Actually, I thought it increased the pressure on the team. So, okay, what will be acceptable performance? Well, that's hard to judge, but I knew anything less than winning it. And, you know, we're one of the favourites, but still only, even as one of the favourites, there's a 15% chance statistically of winning it.
But if we don't win, I just know the narrative will be a desire for change externally. And then during that tournament, we didn't play as well as we'd have hoped. We couldn't find a rhythm. We had players with injuries. We had some key players that we lost just before the tournament, people like Maguire.
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Chapter 2: How did Gareth Southgate manage the pressure during penalty shootouts?
So after every game, bringing the whole group together, players and staff, talking to them about this is where we're at, this is the reality, there was a picture. We drew 1-1 with Denmark, not a good performance. The Danes are celebrating with their fans. They've got one point and they're on two points for the tournament. Our players are like this. They're on the floor. They're head in hands.
We've also got a point. We're top of the table on four points. But the players have... gone with this narrative that we should be ashamed of the performance, not thinking, hang on, this is tournament football. The objective is to qualify from the group. So, fellas, we're fine. We've now two games gone. We're 97% chance that we're through anyway, whatever happens in the third game.
So we've got to stay on track. We've got to stay calm in a tournament. You're in this bubble where... you can be so affected by what's going on outside and lose the togetherness, lose the sense of direction that my job through that tournament was to keep reminding them, boom, hey, we've got to get better, by the way. This is what we've got to do better. We're not doing this well enough.
We're not... But we're still here. And regardless of everything else, we're showing resilience and we're showing spirit that we've developed over six, eight years through the big nights where we've won and the nights where we've lost. So let's keep on track. And they needed to see the leader as confident of where we're heading. In those moments, everybody's looking at the leader.
How's he dealing with it? Am I ready to follow him? How's he coping? So I know what I've got to project, but I also know in my room I'm thinking, I've got to see this through. I'm going to keep my dignity in the press conferences. I'm not going to bite. I'm in control. I know I'm actually feeling personally in pretty good form. So...
Yeah, so all of those things where, had I been 10 years younger, back to my time at Middlesbrough, I've got nowhere near the catalogue of experiences to draw on. So I couldn't possibly have got through that then. 10 years later with 100 internationals behind me, totally different experiences to draw on, strength of resolve, everything really.
And what about your family though? Because that must be pretty horrific for them to watch you having to walk through this.
Yeah, well that is, I mean, reality is that is different because they haven't elected to be in that environment and they are living it and they are reading about their dad. Yeah. They didn't come to a game until the final because I said, you know, I don't think it's a good idea for you to come. I don't think you should be in the stadium.
Because of the abuse?
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Chapter 3: What leadership lessons did Gareth learn from his experiences in 1996?
I don't want to be worrying about I've got to play. I can't be worrying about those other things. So I had to manage that.
you know there's always a bit of we've got brilliant i have brilliant people that look after me that would have helped my family with their travel and everything else but small part of you would have still been saying yeah hope they're all right i don't know who's who's sitting around them and what are they saying you know they're so yeah we we avoided that issue did they know you were finishing the job after the tournament
Yeah, I did have that conversation with them because I had to reassure them, look, I'm reassuring them, I'm fine. They're at home, they're reading things, they're watching television, they're listening because they're not as experienced as I am at closing those things off. So they're thinking, blimey, is Dad all right? In a rare moment of worrying about Dad. So, but...
So I'm thinking, no, no, no, look, I know where we are. If it ends on Wednesday, we've had an amazing journey. I don't want to go. Slovakia, first knockout game or whatever it is. I don't want it to finish on Wednesday, but if it does, we'll have to deal with it, but I'm fine. Okay, we're on to the next one. We're on to the next one. And... I needed to reassure them that I was fine.
And it was easy for me to do that because I was in a good place. So I wasn't having to act that. You know, they would have known me. They would sense where I was with everything. You didn't feel lonely? I had brilliant staff around me. So you're never succeeding on your own. You're constantly drawing on good people around you.
Yeah, leadership position, there are moments where you're the only, you know, you are the only one and you make decisions and you're left with your own thoughts. But I wasn't in that camp thinking, oh, God, you know, I felt unbelievably well supported by good people.
Obviously, there's the moment that you decide to walk away, right? Before that, did you try and turn things around and explain this is unfair for the following reasons or attempt to change the direction of the media narrative and the public mood?
Yeah, but I think this had been building for... I don't think this was a two, three-month thing. I think we'd been four years of... He's not picking the right team. He's not playing the right way. There's a better alternative out there. So you are fighting it. It wasn't like, okay, I'm getting a bit of criticism, I'm off. I'm a bit more resilient than that.
There'd been this build-up for a long period. Even through the Euros at home, we should be playing X, should be playing Y. Why are we playing... Five at the back against Germany. Well, actually, we've matched them up and we've won against a very, very good side. First time we've beaten Germany in a knockout game for 30 years. So, you know, it was a constant fight.
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Chapter 4: How did Gareth Southgate address the media narrative surrounding his tenure?
I knew what the job was. Most amazing life experience, incredible memories, nights that I'll never, ever forget, that people that come up to me will never forget. You know, some kids think we always get to finals, you know.
they've never known anything different they haven't lived the 45 years we have so leadership's hard isn't it you know and it's never been harder because of 24 7 media social media that is the landscape it comes with great rewards great experiences and there's a there's another side to that as well if you'd have known the cost so would you have still taken the job
Well, I did know what the costs would be. When Roy left, I was asked to apply and I backed off of it, really. And one of the reasons being I'd seen all those previous managers and do I want to go through all of that?
And a little bit of a lack of belief in myself, perhaps, and a feeling that actually an internal appointment at that moment where we'd just lost to Iceland, I think we'd have got lambasted by the public. So actually two months down the line when Sam left, slightly different. Actually, we've got a game in a week's time. Somebody's got to take the team. I'm the only one left, so we'll give it a go.
There's a different narrative that you're inheriting. If you're going in on the back foot from the start, it's hard to change that. You're pushing a boulder up a hill from the off. It's not impossible to turn that around, but it's much, much harder. So despite the way it finished, you didn't ever regret taking the job? Oh, God, no.
I mean, the life experience I've had, the things I've been able to do, I've met... royal family, prime ministers, travelled the world at the most amazing nights in professional sport, been involved in some of the biggest games in world football, amazing relationships with players and staff.
So, no, I mean, you know, for all the... We focused a little bit on a period where it's hard and, you know, that leaves a few scars. There's no doubt about that.
but no what a life experience to be able to do that hold that position for the length of time i had and the following day after you told the fa and you were no longer the england manager how did that feel a lot calmer the morning after the final we land back in um birmingham We're obviously charter flight. My family is still flying back with all the other families.
So they're going to be home after us. So I get back to home and a friend of ours had looked after the dog. We've got a little cockapoo, by the way. I don't normally like to be seen out in the hours of daylight with him. I prefer a lab or something. Teddy. Teddy. He's 12 now. So I open the door and there's Ted. I mean, he doesn't care about the final, does he?
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Chapter 5: What strategies did Gareth use to create a positive team culture?
And I think there was definitely a feeling of, I don't want to be that player. So a bit of self-protection. Playing for your national football team doesn't come with much more pressure than that in sport. Because you're outside your comfort zone. At a club, you're there 300 days a year. You know everybody from the kit man to the lady that's washing the kit to dinner people providing the meals.
So if you have a bad performance, this comfort there, this, I suppose, what we'd call psychological security,
with the national team you're in you've got to bond quickly when you have a performance everybody's weighing in with opinion so for a player it's a much much less secure feeling if you like and one of the things I wanted to create was okay how do we how do we release that tension because I played for England and I knew what that felt like and we couldn't be burdened by the history of
my generation not getting the results. Part of what we did was to focus on this moment in time, free you up of everything that's gone before, talk to them a bit about my experiences. But you can make this moment something really special. You'll have heard us talk about creating our own history. That was why we kept using that phrase really. Okay, we haven't won here for 30 years.
Let's be the first to do it.
sort of challenge mindset rather than feeling the pressure of we've got to win i suppose i think what was significant gareth is and you write about this really beautifully in in your brilliant book you didn't just rely on slogans of let's create our own history you then boiled it down to really clear cultural behaviors would you including like how you give the kit back
Would you explain a bit about that and its significance?
Culture is a word that's used an enormous amount, isn't it? So what is that? What creates that? Well, the leader definitely sets the tone for that. And respectfully, there's what you say, but then what you do is far more important. So same as our kids looking at us. They're looking at our behaviours. They're mimicking what we do. That's why I pull the same faces that my dad pulls.
And you go, oh God, I must be getting old because...
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Chapter 6: How did Gareth Southgate handle the retirement of Wayne Rooney?
Well, I think there was an element of hardship. I mean, we actually, our next game, we were away at Hampden Park. So we're going into a pretty hostile environment. And, you know, we talked about the resilience that we'd gained and everything. When we were 1-0 ahead in the game, pretty comfortable, 85 minutes, Lee Griffiths hits a free kick, 1-0.
Two minutes later, he gets an identical free kick, same position. And I'm looking at it thinking, this is going in, by the way. He pops it in. We're now 2-1 down. And if we lose this game, now the whole Marines trip's got a different slant on it.
There's a brilliant story in the book that I'd like you to explain about the poker chips and how you engage the players. Would you tell us more about it?
Well, that was not the players so much. It was more the staff group behind the scenes. So this was one of Dave's again. At that stage, everything was up for grabs. Okay, how can we improve the performance of the team? So it could be the physical preparation, could be the psychological preparation. It might, you know, what are we doing on our football? So details of set plays.
And had you taken charge of a game before you did this?
This was after my four games as a caretaker. Right, so this is almost the start of your reign properly. Yeah, yeah. And how do we, you know, we're now 14th in the world. We want to be the best. That's the gap. How do we bridge that gap? Media relations, as an example, we knew there was this disconnect. How do we bridge that gap?
Our comms team wrote a paper, almost like an academic paper, on the influence of communications on performance. So it wasn't just how we're going to do the media better, It was, look, this is actually how we view our communication as a performance gain.
And if you think back to Russia, where it was the first time really a team had used social media to engage with the fans, we were in that transition where clubs weren't necessarily doing that. So all this different content where... You saw the dad's genuine, you know, behind the scenes, enjoyment, relaxed pictures. We had our own photographer embedded.
Whereas what you used to see was photographs from the day before a game, training at the stadium. Everyone's got their game facing because we better look serious because the press are in. So... Can't look like we're enjoying it. Everybody will think we're messing about and not taking it seriously. So people thought, well, they don't like playing for England.
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Chapter 7: What insights did Gareth share about managing player expectations?
And what sort of topics were you offering them? So in a football sense... how we attack, how we defend, set plays, penalty shootouts. So we know or we knew you've probably got to win a penalty shootout to win a tournament. History tells us that. We're a disaster at them. History tells us that as well. So that's an obvious one.
But again, set plays, set play coaches at that time, specialist coaches in other sports were more prevalent. They weren't in football. When we went to Russia, we had a huge amount of success with set plays. And then medically, you can't make the players, in the time you have them internationally, you can't make the players fitter and stronger, really. You haven't got long enough.
If you push them too hard, you're going to break them, you're going to send them back injured. So you've got to really think about how much training they're doing. It's got to be aligned with what they do at their club, otherwise they're going to be fatigued going into a game. That's going to inhibit their performance.
So all these things, right, I'm going to put some chips there, and we slowly developed a picture of, okay, this is where we need to allocate our time. This is where we've only got a certain amount of financial resource, so... if we want a set play coach, that's going to cost us money. What aren't we going to do if we're putting that in place? And it was basically a prioritization exercise.
But your staff were the ones that made the decision as to where they thought the time should be prioritized. It didn't come from you?
No, we all, I mean, I had a go.
But it wasn't like an authoritarian situation where you're like, this is how England runs under Gareth Southgate.
No, you know, there are some things where you have to put your marker down. You know, so the culture I want to set, that has to come from me because I've got to live that. But every other thing, you know, I've got people that are better than, at those individual areas than I am, more experienced, greater knowledge.
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Chapter 8: What legacy does Gareth Southgate hope to leave behind?
My job is to gather all the information and make the best possible decisions with what they're telling me. So I need to give them the most open forum possible to feel like they can speak, that I'm not influencing them. I talk in the book that if we're in team meetings, I try to speak last with my staff because as soon as I've given an opinion...
that risks influencing someone else's, not their thinking, but their willingness to share. If they're thinking differently to the leader, who the perception is holds the power in the room, then they're going to be reluctant to go in a completely different direction. I've just seen that in so many businesses and so many environments I've been in where
leader comes in gives a speech and everybody you know people are thinking well I wouldn't quite have done it that way but I better not say anything so I think so many organisations underperform because that environment exists can I just pick up on the point about the the way the press spoke about England who was was it a rugby player that said to us he watches football and sees every player playing within themselves yes who was it was it Johnny Wilkinson yes I thought so so a long time ago when we spoke with Johnny Wilkinson we talked about
dealing with other people's opinions of you and he said he watches football and he sees fear gripping every professional footballer in the country because of the amount of social media scrutiny the way the media write about footballers have you ever allowed yourself to kind of think about what the game would look like if we just spoke positively about these young people that are doing the best to represent their club and represent their country
Jake, I love it. And now let's go back to the real world.
But why are we in this world where we want to be hypercritical and then say, now go and perform as a 21-year-old in front of the world? And then pillory them for playing badly. It feels like we'll create the problem and then we'll criticise them for being part of the problem. Is that fair?
Completely. And that's why... internally when you're coaching you've got to create an environment where you're balancing all of that noise that they're getting externally so you've got to allow them as much freedom as you possibly can you know I talk to my players regularly about If we're not trying things, if you're not making mistakes, then we're probably not really going for it.
I'm expecting you to make mistakes and I'm not going to criticise you for making mistakes. I will criticise you if you make a mistake and then you don't look for the ball the next time. I will criticise you if you make a mistake, lose the ball and you don't chase back quickly. But the actual process, especially for attacking players, because they've got to fail. To beat somebody is hard.
The odds are in the favour of the defender. So if I'm running at you, you're going to probably stop me because even by just putting a foot out, you might get lucky. So forwards are going to fail because they've got to try things and it's harder. But then you're waiting for one moment where they beat the defender, rip the cross in and bang, you win the game.
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