The Indo Daily
Justice Minister Jim O'Callaghan on migration and Bertie Ahern's controversial comments
14 May 2026
Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.
Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
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Hello and welcome to this special edition of IndoPolitics with me, Mary Regan and Conall Thomas, where we sit down for a wide-ranging chat with the Justice Minister, Jim O'Callaghan. We talk about migration.
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Chapter 2: What are Justice Minister Jim O'Callaghan's views on migration?
And although it's only a small part, it is the most politically contentious, as you've indicated. And I suppose the reason it's politically contentious is that other types of migration involve people coming in for work permits who are unable to work here and are able to, I suppose, pay their own way, being blunt. When it comes to asylum, we have an obligation under the
A part of having a mature discussion is it is unquestionably the case that the establishment of a lot of IPAS centres has had an impact on local communities' views about immigration. So I've sought to diffuse that. You mentioned Dublin One, Conall. I haven't, since I've become minister, opened any more IPAS centres in Dublin One because I believe that there was an over-concentration of them.
And your department recently confirmed, in fact, though, to the PAC that the state is being sued by private commercial providers. I believe in five cases, two of them settled. And as we move towards, say, unwinding the Ukrainian supports, are you anticipating more cases, more legal cases against the state from commercial operators?
Well, I'm not as the direct answer, but I suppose it's a reflection of the policy that I've implemented. And there were reasons for those contracts not going ahead. And, you know, they're before the court, so I don't want to get into too much detail of it. But like, I do have an obligation as minister. to reduce the amount of money that we're spending. And I'm having some success.
For the first time in years, our spend on IPAS this year has gone down from what it was last year. And in terms of Ukrainian accommodation, the state spent 1.2 billion in 2024. This year, we'll be spending 600 million. So I'm reducing the cost because that spiralling cost that was going up, up, up was unsustainable.
Explain to me just for a minute before we get on to the Ukrainians, though, because You're designing the migration strategy, obviously, to come into effect alongside or roughly around the same time, I suppose, the EU-wide asylum pact, which is kind of an overhaul, let's face it. Now, some things that have been mooted within that pact are quite controversial.
So can you just explain to our listeners around what you might call these proposed detention centres to hold people who might be here legally? Are we going to see them and where are they going to be?
Well, first of all, in terms of the national migration strategy, that's a strategy that I'm putting in place that won't come out later on in the year. In terms of the pact itself, the pact will commence on the 12th of June. I brought through the Oireachtas the most significant reform of our asylum laws that was signed by the president recently.
And there are provisions within it which I think are important and necessary.
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Chapter 3: How does O'Callaghan perceive the long wait to become Fianna Fáil leader?
But like in all of these issues, one of the things... What you have to do is to weigh up, on the one hand, you have the interests of the asylum applicant coming in. But on the other hand, I have to weigh up the interests of the state and the interests of the state. And in terms of the issue about detention, there are limited provisions within the legislation that allow for detention.
But one of the obligations, if somebody comes in and claims asylum, what they've required under the legislation is that they have to provide biometric data and they have to go to a screening centre. And if they don't do that, there's a mechanism there for them to be detained for the purpose of identifying who they are. Will the state need additional stock to detain them?
Well, I hope and believe that the overwhelming majority of people who come here claiming asylum will comply with the law. Like, we're entitled to set down certain requirements on people who come here. If you come to Ireland, you claim asylum, you have to give your biometric data and you have to go to a screening centre. There's no exception to that. And if you don't do that, you'll be detained.
You said that the cost of IPAS was unsustainable and that you said about diffusing the situation. To that extent, do you think Ireland got its migration policy wrong for a long time?
Well, listen, all I look at is what's there at present. I'm not going to comment on the situation that predecessors found themselves in. And obviously, if you look around Europe today, particularly at present. Migration is a huge issue in the 21st century. When the history of the 21st century is going to be written, migration is going to be a hugely significant story.
And you can look to see what happened in 2015, 2016 in Germany. And obviously, Ireland had low numbers of people coming, claiming asylum prior to COVID. It was around 3,000, 4,000, 5,000 a year. But then after COVID, it took off significantly. In 2024, it was 18,500 people came in. Last year, it got it down to 13,000.
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Chapter 4: How did Bertie Ahern's comments impact the migration debate?
And like, I don't make any apologies about saying it. I want to reduce the number of people coming to Ireland claiming asylum. And the reason I want to do that is because of data. Because the data tells me, for instance, this year, 5,500 people have had their asylum applications adjudicated. 83% have been rejected. And even when you take into account appeals, the appeal rate allows around 30%.
So the very, very significant majority of people coming to Ireland claiming asylum are not entitled to asylum. They're entitled to claim asylum, but ultimately we can see that they don't get asylum. And that's information that I'm trying, entitled to use for the purpose of developing policy.
And is that a humane approach, do you think, given the scale of conflict and what people are fleeing around the world?
Yeah, but you have to take into account the people who have their applications rejected. They're not fleeing conflict. They're not fleeing war.
Chapter 5: What are the implications of Bertie Ahern's remarks on racism?
They're here, and it's probably something we would do as well. They're here because there are economic opportunities for them in Ireland. I would much prefer, and I think would make the whole system operate more effectively, if people who wanted to come to Ireland for economic reasons used the economic avenues that are available to come here, as opposed to misusing the asylum system.
OK, and in June 2022, the Taoiseach, in an address to the European Parliament, said Ireland was honoured that more than 34,000 Ukrainians sought shelter in this country. And he said Ireland would stand with Ukraine, not just during the war, but in the months and years ahead, because, he said, they are our fellow Europeans. But now you want to pay Ukrainians to leave.
That's not fully accurate, but certainly the response of Ireland to the war in Ukraine was extremely generous. And what the Taoiseach said was absolutely correct. Approximately 113,000 people from Ukraine came to Ireland, applied for and were granted temporary protection.
Chapter 6: What are the current challenges in Ireland's immigration policy?
There's around 84,000 left at present. Ireland was more generous than any other European country when it came to accommodation. The obligation under the Temporary Protection Directive was that you have to provide access to accommodation. We went further and we provided accommodation to people. And I suppose what we're doing now is, and a lot of the Ukrainians...
you know, have moved out of state accommodation and they've got their own accommodation and the accommodation recognition payment has helped with that. But at present, there's around 16,500 people who are still in state accommodation, which is provided free. Many of them are working.
You know, myself and Colin Brophy have worked through this and we think it is more appropriate that we move away from state provided accommodation and people who are working should make a contribution. But that decision is... is going to cabinet, a proposal is going to cabinet on Tuesday week and a decision will be made.
And do you think it's appropriate to send Ukrainians home to a situation that can be uncertain, can be dangerous, where people are living their lives based around when alarms are going off, when there are strikes, when there are power outages? And just yesterday, six killed by Russians, Russia and Ukraine.
I was in the Dáil this morning answering questions on this very issue, temporary protection, and I emphasised, and I think it's important we remember, the reason for temporary protection is because of Russia's illegal and unlawful invasion. And that needs to stop. So a lot of measures were put in place. But in Europe, there are discussions about temporary protection.
Temporary protection is never envisaged to last forever. The reason it's called temporary protection is because it is temporary. It's extended until March 2027 only. I've also been addressed, as have other EU ministers, by the Ukrainian Minister for Home Affairs. They want people to go back home. And the reason they want people to go back home is their population has been diminished.
They want to rebuild their country. I'm fully aware, by the way, that there'll be people in Ireland from Ukraine who want to stay. There'll be many who want to go back home. If they needed assistance to go back home, I would have thought it's reasonable to have
Just on that, Assistant Minister, can you clarify a little bit what those payments might look like? I mean, are there sums to set people up back home or just incentivise them back to Ukraine out of Ireland?
First of all, a decision hasn't been made on that as of yet. But if you look at the international protection system, we do have a system for voluntary returns.
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Chapter 7: What does O'Callaghan envision for Fianna Fáil's future?
But in many instances, when it comes to Ukrainians, a lot of them will want to go back home. And those who want to go back home and can afford it will just do that. But if there's issues in terms of people who have difficulty in terms of paying for their flight back or issues like that, we might make a contribution that was made. Are you in favour of it?
I am in favour of providing assistance to people who want to return to Ukraine. Like, we look at it here, Ukrainians have made a very good contribution here. But like from the other side of it, from the Ukrainian side, their population has been very significantly affected by it. They want their people back to rebuild their country.
And I suppose what everyone in Europe wants to see is the war ended, Ukraine to go back to peace and people to be able to return to their homeland.
Do you have a figure in mind either for how much of a contribution or how many people you might want to see return?
I haven't. But like, you know, from the voluntary return scheme and international protection that there are payments available to assist people to go out. I would have thought in the context of international protection, it is more difficult to persuade people to go back because a lot of the people who came returned.
through international protection and who have been told they can't stay, are people who came here for economic reasons and there's a desire to stay here. People did leave Ukraine because of the war. That's clearly the case. And I think probably if the war ends and things settle down, that then it'll be easier for people to repatriate themselves back to Ukraine.
Will there be anything to prevent someone who takes such a payment, returns to Ukraine, from coming back to Ireland a few weeks or a few months later?
There will be, of course. And this system operates in terms of the international protection system. People, if they are put out of the country, they're not allowed to return. And also in terms of any payments. And I'm talking about small payments here. Payments will be made only on their arrival back in the country.
Will they not be entitled to refugee status under European law?
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Chapter 8: How does the Minister address concerns about Islamic terrorism?
We've done a huge amount in this country in terms of making this country the successful post-colonial independent country that it is. I'm reading Sean LaMasse's book at present, written by Rona McGreevy. People forget what this country was like in, say, the 30s or the 40s, or when we got our independence.
But that's all in the past. And it might be meaningless to some younger voters. So if there was someone who's just turning 18, they haven't voted yet, they will, over the next couple of years, vote for the first time. What would you say to them that Fianna Fáil can do for them? Or...
I think there's a real benefit in Fianna Fáil because we're a centre ground national party. We seek to represent the interests of all sections of Irish society. We don't concentrate on a particular grouping within Irish society. Look at our record. Look at the fact that we're the party that actively wants to seek Irish reunification.
We're the party that has redistributed wealth very significantly within the country. We have built up the economy to where it is today. Like when I go to other countries, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to diminish the challenges here.
But when you look at the surplus that we're producing, the economic success that we have in Ireland, the fact that so many multinationals are coming in here, this was Sean LaMasse's proposal. He decided in the 1950s, we need to change course. We need to attract multinationals into this country. We need to broaden out investment. It's a remarkable success.
But I suppose, do you believe under Micheál Martin, though, that the party is somewhat drifted from its Republican ethos? I mean, you are a minister who has previously left the door open for going into government with Sinn Féin, something your party leaders emphatically ruled out. You're also considered far more considered on the issue of a United Ireland as Leo Varadkar was.
So there's an inner shinner there, isn't there?
Can I just say one thing I'm not going to do when we're discussing Fianna Fáil is discuss Fianna Fáil by reference to other political parties. You can ask politicians from other political parties in here and I've no doubt they'll be able to speak for their party. As I said earlier, Micheál Martin's done an excellent job in terms of the challenges that Fianna Fáil leaders have faced.
Probably he had the biggest challenge when you look at what he took over in 2011 than any of the other previous leaders. So, look, his record speaks for itself in respect of it. Fianna Fáil is committed to Irish reunification. It's an issue upon which we've played a central role.
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