Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.
Nice to meet you, sir.
Thanks for having me. My pleasure. Great to be in Austin.
You've been here before.
I grew up in Texas, and so we used to come up here for live music. I went to Baylor, and there was no music, no dancing. If you wanted to hear some live music, you came to Austin. So I've been here many times. Nice.
It's a great spot. So here's your book, Deception, The Great Cover-Up. You were a lone voice of reason during the pandemic that, you know, for me, you were extremely valuable. And I was cheering you on every step of the way when you were grilling Anthony Fauci. With all due respect, you do not know what you are talking about. That guy was driving me fucking crazy.
It was mind-numbing how many people were going along with it and how many people just accepted what he was saying, ignored all the evidence that pointed to gain-of-function research. didn't freak out when it was quite obvious that he was lying about gain-of-function research. And I just thank God that you were grilling him, and at least it was on the record, and we could all watch it and see it.
One of the greatest tragedies, and we knew this within days, was that children weren't getting sick, but that should have been used to our advantage. Children did not get sick. No child without a health issue really died.
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Chapter 2: How did Rand Paul respond to the pandemic's handling?
The argument didn't really hold water, though, because everybody got it anyway.
And so we didn't know that in the beginning. Right. In the beginning, they were lying and they were saying that although we now know that there was no data that showed that the vaccine stopped infection, stopped transmission.
But here's another thought. You could have said, yeah, kids could take it to their grandparents. So until the kid has gotten it and recovered for two weeks, tell them not to visit their grandparents. You know what I mean?
Well, the problem was the people that live with their grandparents.
Yeah, I know. And there would be the exceptions to the rule. But most of the people, the death rate we already knew in China was very, very small once you added in the kids. Initially, they were saying it was a 3% death rate, which would have been instead of 1 million people dying, you know, would have been significantly more. Three million people may have died.
But they knew the death rate was less than that in China early on. But part of the reason they thought it was so high is they weren't counting all the asymptomatic cases. You know, they knew how many people were sick and how many people died, but the denominator was the number of people who actually were sick or who actually got the infection, but they weren't counting millions of people.
But Anthony Fauci denied this at every step. He denied that natural immunity would protect you. And one of my favorite quotes was from a guy named Martin Kulldorff. He was an epidemiologist at Harvard who ended up getting fired. But recently he tweeted out, it was about a year or two ago, he said, We knew about natural immunity from the time of the Athenian plague in 436 B.C.
And we knew that knowledge until 2020. Then we lost all knowledge of natural immunity. But the good news is in 2025, we're starting to get back that knowledge. But this was Anthony Fauci knew better. You know, he couldn't even read his own basic immunology books about, you know. The fact that you do develop immunity, is it perfect? No. Can you get COVID more than once? Yes.
But I defy you to tell me somebody who got it the second time who died the second time. You know what I mean? People got it less severely so the second time they got it, if they got it at all.
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Chapter 3: What are the implications of natural immunity during COVID-19?
That clip of you and he on the program is my favorite clip of all time.
I don't know what he thought was going to happen. I think he just thought he was going to come in here and CNN was going to send their medical mercenary in with all his knowledge. But you can't argue with someone when you can't use facts. So he didn't have any facts at his disposal. And he was working for a network that was openly lying about me taking veterinary medicine.
Like the whole thing was surreal. And for someone who is – up until 2020 – I mean, I was reasonably distrustful of mainstream news, but in a normal way, like I'm sure they bend things a little bit or twist things a little bit.
I would have never thought I would watch a campaign against me like that, where every night it was horse dewormer, horse dewormer, Joe Rogan, dangerous conspiracy theories, COVID denier, vaccine denier. I was like, this is fascinating.
I think it brings up a broader question too, that when people tell you there's a consensus and because the consensus exists, you cannot object. I think that's a real danger to openness, to new ideas, but it's also a danger in medicine. And in medicine to say, this is the consensus and we're not going to do this. So in the first month of this,
maybe first or second month, Fauci comes in and I said, you know, many people who die from the flesh-eating bacteria, which is not the same, but it's a serious illness, what they give them to try to treat them to prevent death and loss of limbs is high-dose IV steroids. And I had a friend whose life was saved. He didn't lose any of his limbs and he had this terrible illness.
And so I asked Anthony Fauci, I said, do you think there's a chance as they're getting very, very sick and their lungs are filling up with fluid that we could try high dose IV steroids like we do in other infections? He said, oh, no, no, we've tried that.
Turns out, and we mentioned this in the book, the best treatment when you are just about to go on the ventilator or on the ventilator when you have a 50 percent chance of dying at that point was IV steroids, an old generic medicine that a big pharma doesn't make much money off of. Which steroids in particular? It's called solumedrol, but it's just IV steroids.
And it was a 36% reduction in death, which is pretty significant when you're in the ICU. The people in the ICU were very, very sick. It was a third of them had a reduction in death by taking IV steroids. But he was dismissing it from the very beginning and already acting like, oh, I know it's not going to work. And we're going to try remdesivir, which turned out not to work very well.
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Chapter 4: How does Rand Paul view government intervention in health?
Martha wants to come visit him at the camps, at the war camps. And there were more deaths in the Revolutionary War from disease than there were from bullets. He says, you can't come until you're vaccinated for smallpox. It wasn't vaccinated. It was called inoculated because you're getting stuck with the disease, not a vaccine.
And but people say, well, I guess Washington took it, too, if he believes so much in this. Well, no, because he already had smallpox. He got smallpox when he was 15 in Barbados. They understood immunity. We have understood immunity for thousands of years. And yet it just went out the window with Anthony Fauci saying, well, we just don't know. We just won't. We just don't know. We do know.
We don't always know how perfect it's going to be. But we do know that nobody got COVID the second time around and had a worst case the second time around.
Yeah.
Well, one thing we do know is that when Biden left office, he was granted this very bizarre pardon where he got a pardon that goes back to 2014 for crimes he was never accused of, never convicted. I mean it's got to be one of the first times that anybody has ever been pardoned.
Yeah, and I think it should be challenged. And so we have – under the Biden administration, I sent criminal referrals for Anthony Fauci to Merrick Garland. twice, and I sent them evidence that he had lied to Congress, which was a felony. They just ignored me. I've been working with Bobby Kennedy, and he's been very helpful on this. I have good relationship with him.
He's given us a lot of information, and we've looked at the communications. And in Anthony Fauci's communications, we now have evidence that he was telling people like Francis Collins, read this and destroy it. You can't do that. The executive branch, when they communicate, they're required to keep their communications and they're required to do it on government devices.
So we have this evidence, and I've summarized it again in a criminal referral to Trump's attorney general, and I still haven't gotten action. But there's a couple reasons we should do it. One, he shouldn't get away with lying. He shouldn't get away with destroying records. But two, we should check the pardon. Is an auto pen pardon valid?
And is a pardon a retrospective pardon back 10 years that doesn't mention a crime? Can you give people a pardon for everything they did in a 10-year period? I can't imagine. And I think the court might narrow that. But it doesn't happen unless the Trump Justice Department will do something. And I've been sending them referrals and I can't get them to do anything. I can't guarantee they'll win.
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Chapter 5: What are the risks of financial behavior among college students?
We're talking about ignorant people. College students, they're high up on the list of ignorant people, people lacking common sense. Yeah, it's that. Well, they're also very young. Yeah, people get into a gambling problem. They get into some problem where they don't have money. But if you say it can be 10%, what does that tell me about my behavior? I just keep borrowing at 10%.
I might have to stop someday at 30%. You know what I mean? And so the marketplace develops these things, but that price is sending signals back to people. It's the same way with interest rates on houses. The president's always like, we need lower interest rates.
Chapter 6: How do interest rates influence the housing market?
Houses are so expensive. Why don't we just fix the price at 2% and tell the banks they can't get more than 2%? The problem is this. If there's a boom and everybody's buying houses and the demand goes up for houses, prices will go up and the demand for the money goes up. And as the interest rates rise, then the economy will slow down.
So in 2000, from 2000 to about 2007, the Federal Reserve kept the interest rates low. It's like 2%. You could get money. It was free. And there was this boom in houses. And there was some dishonesty, too, in the subprime market. But the boom kept going.
If interest rates had risen to 4% or 5%, home sales would have gone down and people would have lamented that, but you wouldn't have gotten such an enormous boom in the crash. So the cycle of the economy going up and down is dictated by interest rates. And you want interest rates. You don't want high interest rates. Nobody wants that.
But if you don't allow them to move, that sends a signal back that we're buying too many houses and we're building too many houses and we'll slow down. If you just send the signal to keep interest rates at two, you get the boom so high up here that the crash is devastating like it was in 2010.
What are your feelings about corporations buying up? personal homes, like Blackstone and there's a bunch of different corporations that have bought, I don't know if it's Blackstone, but I heard that Blackstone, there was a drop in their stock price because of this thing that Trump is trying to do now to stop corporations from buying individual family homes and then leasing them out to people.
Yeah.
So in a free market, in a free world where you can choose a hemp product, you also make contracts with who you sell to. So for me to tell you, to me it's a freedom issue. If I tell you you can't sell your house to Blackstone, that's me limiting your choices. Maybe Blackstone is going to give you 5% more. I'm stealing 5% from you. And it's not a given that it's going to be bad. It might be bad.
But I think if you look at this carefully, for example, what's one of the impediments or one of the costs of buying or selling a house is is the real estate price. So the realtor takes, you know, they used to take, what, like 6%. But, you know, now sometimes you can get 3% and you go through a bigger company.
So corporatization or making something bigger where a bigger entity owns something sometimes leads to lower costs because they can actually lower costs.
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Chapter 7: What are the implications of corporations buying homes?
So to me, it's just a freedom issue. I don't think actually probably I think the price of homes has gone up because the value of dollars gone down. We are destroying the dollar. It's like, is gold more precious? No, people are freaking out about how many dollars have been printed and how much debt we're incurring. So the dollar loses its value and prices are home.
I don't I'm not making light of the problem. You know, I have kids of the age of trying to get into houses. It's it's difficult. Prices are extraordinarily high and interest rates are still high, too.
Yeah, I think the fear is like people are terrified that these enormous corporations are going to buy up all of the single-family homes and you won't be able to get one and you'll be forced to lease a home and you'll never be able to own a home.
That's the fear. I know. I think I would probably want to study it more thoroughly to find out if that's actually the result because some people talk about a fear of it happening. You know, if I'm Blackstone, I'm not doing stuff just to hold them around. I'm not like, you know, Mr. Potter on, you know, It's a Wonderful Life and wringing my hands together and I'm going to wait.
They don't make any money holding on to a bunch of houses. They're going to have to sell them. And it may be, what if Blackstone does have 10,000 homes? Maybe they'll do it with a reduced – you go directly to them by website. Goldman Sachs owns homes. There are entities like this, Buffett, Warren Buffett. Berkshire Hathaway owns homes as well.
So I don't think it's a brand-new thing, but I would explore it. I think it's a reaction to think big is bad and that these big players are going to rip us off. But if it's a free contract, I think more of whether or not I should infringe on your liberty until you can't sell your house to Blackstone. I think that's me limiting your ability to contract with whoever you want.
That makes sense. I think the fear is, well, the only reason why they would be doing it is they could make more money leasing the homes out than... Yeah, I don't know.
The same way with buying apartments, too. I'm guessing they bought apartments, too, because kids are staying in apartments longer, and the apartment business has been a really good business for like the last... 10 years buying apartments, but corporations own apartments. The real disaster isn't stuff like that, the marketplace.
The disaster of rent and homes and not having enough places to live in Manhattan, which is very expensive, or New York in general, and I'm positive The Socialist is going to make it worse. Rent control, what does that mean? If you're in the middle of Manhattan and you can get an apartment for $300, you're like,
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Chapter 8: How does immigration policy impact local communities?
But if I'm the landlord and all the stuff's broken in there and there's holes in the walls, I'm not fixing it for $300 a month. I need $3,000 a month to keep the place up. So what happens is the apartments go into ruin and also there's a shortage.
You need money and you need big people with money to build apartment complexes, particularly in New York where you got to tear something down and build something new. I'm not doing it if you're going to tell me what my rent's going to be. So socialism doesn't work.
And the one thing people don't understand about it because they fear somebody being ripped off and how expensive something is, is there was an economist, Joseph Schumpeter, and he put it this way. He said the miracle of capitalism is not that the queen can buy silk stockings, but the factory girl can.
But in the beginning, the first person, the only person to buy them will be queens and kings and rich people. So the story of calculators, my dad had a calculator. He was a doctor and we were well-to-do. We weren't extraordinarily rich but well-to-do. He had a calculator for 300 bucks in the 1970s. All it could do is add, subtract and multiply and it was about this thick and this big.
But you can go tour a condo and pretend to buy a condo, and the real estate agent will give you a calculator now. But in the beginning, only rich people got them.
But if you forbid rich people from getting them at a high price, the only way it gets to a low price, like Tesla started with more expensive cars at a high price, they're coming down, but they only come down because rich people bought them first. So we can never be of the notion that we're going to make things better by preventing prices from being too high in something.
It's how products get started. So the queen may have bought the first silk stockings, but eventually capitalism brings the price down enough that you have mass distribution and actually a factory girl can buy them.
Cell phones are a good argument about that in that defense. So when it comes to the economy and when it comes to spending money, what do you think can be done differently? Like say if you had a magic wand and you could turn things around, what would you do differently?
I think the first thing to acknowledge is both parties are equally guilty. The debt is the problem of both parties and the spending is both parties. And there is a compromise. I tell people it's a dirty little deal that's going on right in front of your nose. The right, Lindsey Graham and the Warhawks, want more military money. The left, Chris Murphy and Booker, they want more welfare.
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