Show notes
Adrian Hyland is an award-winning Australian author of twisty crime stories that are perfect for the fans of Jane Harper, The Dry and Chris Hammer’s Scrublands.
Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And on Binge Reading today, we’ve got author who was a delightful discovery for me. Adrian Hyland’s latest book, Canticle Creek combines complex and engaging characters, heart racing plot lines, and whip smart writing that captures the spirit and natural landscape of the Australian Heartland.
Our free book offer is a great selection of historical romances – a big contrast to Adrian’s work. You’ll find the links for that in the show notes for this episode on our website for joys of binge reading.com, or you can take the easy route, join in our newsletter and have the links sent to you every week so that you can get in and enter for these books straight away.
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Links to this episode
Tanami Desert, Northern Territory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanami_Desert
Walpiri people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlpiri_people
Kinglake-350: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/12146952-kinglake-350
Walter Savage Landor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Savage_Landor
The Black Summer: https://theconversation.com/australias-black-summer-of-fire-was-not-normal-and-we-can-prove-it-172506
Mick Herron: https://www.mickherron.com/
Herron’s Slow Horses TV series, starring Gary Oldman: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5875444/
Ali Smith, Scottish novelist: https://www.penguin.co.uk/authors/21919/ali-smith
David Mitchell: https://www.davidmitchellbooks.com/
John Kinsella, poet: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/john-kinsella
Where to find Adrian online
Text Publishing:
https://www.textpublishing.com.au/
LaTrobe University, Melbourne:
[email protected] ·
Introducing crime novelist Adrian Hyland
But now here’s Adrian. Hello there, Adrian. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us
Adrian Hyland, writing crime that is popular fiction with a literary edge.
Adrian Hyland: Good morning, Jenny. Thanks for asking me.
Jenny Wheeler: We’re going to be focusing first on Canticle Creek, which is your most recent page turning mystery. I loved it. I must say it was quite a discovery for me. It’s a page turner, as I emphasize, a really strongly, motivated narrative mystery, but it’s got the sense also of an awareness of landscape and the creative process, which is sometimes more credited to literary fiction.
In short, it does an excellent job of being a great page turner with a literary edge. And I wondered, is that a tension that you consciously feel as you’re writing or is it just more something that comes to you naturally?
Adrian Hyland: Hmm. I’d say it’s one of the demands of the craft. I mean, for me, it what I like most about language, the thing that I appreciate is it’s beauty.
And if something isn’t well written, so it comes across as a cliche or flat? Well, the book loses me, so yes, I try and balance both of those things, I think. Whether I succeed in either, as I was saying, I’m somewhere between the popular and the literary, I think, and maybe I fall between those two stools. But try to honor both of them, I think. I mean, I love both. I like reading, I love reading poetry and all sorts of things, but I also love reading. You know, all sorts of crime novelists, that they’re all important to me.
One of Australia’s best writers is a crime novelist
Jenny Wheeler: Australia’s been particularly strong in crime novelists over the last couple of decades too. And a number of your crime writers do edge into the literary don’t they?
Adrian Hyland: I’d say one of the best Australian writers period of the last, say, 20 years in Australia has been the great Peter Temple, sadly, no longer with us. I remember him saying once when someone asked him a question, he said, look, I just write novels.
If you want to assign them to a particular genre, that’s your choice. And he was a magnificent writer.
Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Now your heroine in Canticle Creek is Jesse Redpath. She’s a young police woman in central Australia, but she gets drawn into an investigation in Victoria, which is for those who are outside of Australia further south and, and really a different sort of cultural community.
She’s trying to help discover something about a young local man who she’s tried to shepherd through the justice system in her own neighborhood.
And he gets into trouble when he absconds down into Victoria. And there is very much in that story, an underlying sense of the clash of cultures between two Australian districts isn’t there? Talk a bit about that for people are not familiar with Australian society.
Adrian’s decade in remote communities
Adrian Hyland: I should emphasize at the start that I spent 10 years living in, basically in very remote indigenous communities, working in mainly in the Tanami, with the Warlpiri people out there in central Australia.
And they had a sensitivity and an awareness of country, which has never left me really, even when I was writing.
I think you’ve read that book that I wrote about Black Saturday, Kinglake-350.
(Editor note: Kinglake-350 is a gripping non fiction account of a disastrous 2009 Australian bush fire.)
You know, even when I was writing a book like that, that sort of indigenous awareness of language, and country and the connection between the two was never far from my mind, it’s sort and it’s loomed large.
It’s a clash of two cultures in many ways, a tragic clash and I’m trying to think how trying to how to summarize that for listeners, particularly given that some of your listeners may not be familiar with the Australian situation.
How different cultures view nature differently
I was traveling through the Tanami with a couple of old fellows, into really remote places where I hadn’t been for many years and they were showing me around the country.
And then that night we camped and we sat talking and drinking tea for a long period. Maybe drinking too much tea in my case, cuz in the middle of the night sometime I woke up in need of a leak.
I took my torch and wandered down to the nearby creek and I was still half asleep and this massive great King Brown Snake reared up out of nowhere. It leapt out at me and almost hit my torch.
I got such a hell of a fright and I dropped my torch and, went running back to the camp site. And I, one of the old guys was sitting there looking at me and he goes, are you right there Jupurrula? That’s what they called me. And I say there’s a massive, great snake down there.
And he looked down there, thought for a few seconds and said, “Hmm, takes a bit of time for the country to remember you.”
As I was drifting off to sleep, that phrase lingered in my memory. What an extraordinary way of looking at country. And that sensitivity is with me still, I think, and it manifests itself in everything I write.
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Crime takes a writer to dark places
Jenny Wheeler: Yes. That is amazing. And so, you didn’t have that sense beforehand?
Adrian Hyland: Not really. No. I basically grew up in the ‘burbs of Melbourne, with not much awareness of that at all. No.
Jenny Wheeler: There’s also an underlying sub theme about a Japanese artist artists that had been in Australia and there’s quite a bit to do with his heritage.
Now I must admit I didn’t look him up online, but it was so convincing that I, I almost came to believe that was a real artist, but I suspect it was entirely fictional. Was it?
Adrian Hyland: Definitely, yes. You just reminded me of something you said a minute ago, the painter is also a poet, and I’ve actually put one of his little poems at the start of the start of the book.
As a crime writer, you explore some pretty dark places of our society. And actually, I was thinking before of this quote, I knew from this poet called Walter Savage Landor, which goes – about a philosopher looking back at his life – and he goes,
I strove with none, for none was worth my strife; Nature I loved, and next to Nature, Art; I warmed both hands before the fire of Life; It sinks, and I am ready to depart.
Creativity and nature our salvation
That summarizes how I think about a lot of things. There’s some terrible things happening in the world. And our only real salvation is in creativity, I think, and nature. And nature and art for me are the two main talismans that I hold to myself.
Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. And that really comes through in your box. It does look, you’ve chosen female protagonists for a number of these novels, as we’ve mentioned, Emily Tempest in the first two mysteries and now Jesse Redpath. And it’s interesting to me, to me that a man in his midlife. Using the voice of young women,
Adrian Hyland: “midlife crisis”
Jenny Wheeler: (Laughs) What made you decide on female protagonists?
Adrian Hyland: There was no deliberate choice, but I think one of the things is as a writer, it really helps having a protagonist, who is a bit of an outsider. And for both of these people, Emily was a young indigenous woman looking at this overwhelmingly white brutal world. And Jesse is also an outsider.
She’s from the Northern Territory and she’s a young woman. I think to me, it just all adds the tension and it means the person can bring a fresh set of eyes.
Jesse has been living and working with the indigenous people for five or so years in the Territory and has learned skills from them, which I suppose she uses to upset various apple carts down in Victoria.
Characters who are ‘fast and funny’
Jenny Wheeler: And also, I guess outsiders like that. If they do manage to rise above the general culture, that’s almost trying to suppress them or repress them, they have a particular spirit about them, don’t they? And they’ve both got very lots of good comebacks when they’re put down. They’re articulate young women.
Adrian Hyland: They’re fast and they’re funny.
Jenny Wheeler: That’s a great way to put it.
Adrian Hyland: I said somewhere about Jesse. She’s got a roundhouse kicking around a round house mouth.
Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s right. Now the Emily Tempest books. Actually, I do want to mention that the first of those, which I think is called Diamond Dove, isn’t it?
Adrian Hyland: Diamond Dove, that’s right.
Jenny Wheeler: And it won the The Ned Kelly Award for Crime Writing Best First Novel, which is a real achievement for an Australian writer. Some people outside of Australia may not be quite so familiar with the Ned Kelly awards, but they’re a very prestigious prize to win for a first novel.
Adrian Hyland: Yes, they are definitely.
Emily Tempest series is completed
Jenny Wheeler: Emily was an amateur detective in Diamond Dove, but in the second book, Gunshot Road, she’s been employed as an Aboriginal community police officer.
So she’s now identified, I guess, with the arm of the law. Isn’t she?
Adrian Hyland: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah.
Jenny Wheeler: Is there any chance we’re going to have a third Emily book?
Adrian Hyland: Probably not. No. I think I’ll stick with Jesse for now. And I think the days of middle aged white fellas writing about with the central character as an indigenous woman are probably over now.
Jesse sort of absorbed it, and also I’ve lost touch with that world. I haven’t even been up there for probably over 10 years now. And I’ve lost some of the intimacy with which I, and a lot of the people I knew, the ones I love most have passed away since then.
But there are still lots of stories to be told and lots of dramatic things happening in this part of the world.
So I’m focusing my energies on that at present. Yes, so look out for another Jesse Redpath novel.
Kinglake-350 – a disastrous 2009 bushfire
Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. We’ll get on to talk about that towards the end of our chat because I always do like ask people what they’re working on now.
But turning to your nonfiction book, which also won a very large amount of critical acclaim and got onto lots of prestigious award shortlists and that’s Kinglake-350.
And it was an anatomy of a disastrous bushfire in 2009. The Black Saturday, bushfires. Can you tell us about that? That was in the area where you personally live, wasn’t it?
Adrian Hyland: That’s right. It was just a shocking fire that killed. – I think it was a hundred and, oh, I should know these things, – maybe 170 people and it got very close to where we live, although fortunately a wind change turned it away at the last moment.
Many of our friends died and we went to nine funerals in the weeks after that, it was just a devastating event.
And just apotheosis of climate change – or I thought it was – but then again, two years ago we had another one, the Black Summer as we called it.
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The Black Summer – a wildlife holocaust
So these bush fires are wreaking havoc upon our country. They’re getting worse, they’re getting more frequent and they’re getting more devastating as climate change hits home.
I’d been in the Country Fire Authority sometime before, but I went down to rejoin the CFA straight after Black Saturday. That’s the volunteer fire association.
So I do what I can to try and tackle ’em on the front line, but also it’s becoming more and more of a central theme in in my books. And I think in every artist’s books. It’s just rushing down the tunnel towards us like a freight train, unfortunately.
Jenny Wheeler: Yes. There’s quite a lot of Kinglake-350 written from the point of view of a local police officer called Roger Wood, who was in charge of that particular section, the Kinglake Section. But the thing I love about it too, is that you do that micro level of what it was really like for the people there in a very personal and intimate way.
But also you do the macro level too, you elevate it to almost like a, a satellite in the sky, looking down on earth as a planet, and you talk about the really huge issues there are about climate change in a way that’s makes it really understandable to people.
Tackling non-fiction as a novelist
Adrian Hyland: Thank, you. I certainly try to do that. I’m still at heart – I feel like I’m a novelist, but I wanted to bring some of that to it.
And even as a crime writer, I wanted to bring some of those novelistic and crime writing techniques to this story of Black Saturday. And Roger, Roger was a friend of mine where they, when they lived at this property, not far down from mine and both our kids were all friends and they go to this little school, which burnt down on Black Saturday.
We were all flung together in a very tight knit little group. And I knew that Roger had performed some amazing deeds on that day, not from him, but from various other people I know whose lives he saved.
I wanted to capture his story and then in capturing one story, hope to honor all of the stories of heroism that were carried out that day.
Jenny Wheeler: It was particularly poignant, the number of people who refused to take direction from people like Roger and who actually lost their lives because of basically perhaps ignorance or an inability to obey other’s orders.
There seemed to be quite a few episodes of that kind of thing where people carried on down a road they’d been told was dangerous and they should just turn back..
Learning how to read the land and fire
Adrian Hyland: I suppose on that day, we’re all so inexperienced and it was just like a, again, I talked about the clash between indigenous and non-indigenous cultures…
This was a clash as well. It’s oh, what’s one phrase. I’m just trying to think. We’re trying to, we’re trying to produce a settled culture in a nomad climate was how one I heard someone describe it once.
I mean, the bush we live in, in Australia, at least, it’s built to burn.
And as the climate changed, it’s getting more and more so, so I think people were just stunned and overwhelmed and didn’t quite know what to do, really.
It was chaos that day. And people were not used to living in the bush or living in places where they wouldn’t once have lived.
And they’ve lost that indigenous awareness. Aboriginal people live with fire very successfully, but by doing lots of it that we don’t have. We’ve got all these big, expensive houses and we don’t want fire coming near them. So we try and suppress the fire, which you can only do for a certain amount of time before it all suddenly it builds up under the underneath and then explodes.
Subtle changes in fire management coming
Jenny Wheeler: Actually, there was that underlying thing that even when white culture tries to do burn offs to protect themselves, they do them in the wrong sort of way. Don’t they? So they’re not as effective.
Adrian Hyland: Often. Well, they used to do them. They’re actually getting a lot more subtle, now.
I was at a burn off with the Fire Association. We go to lots of these burn offs. And I was at one last year and I was amazed how much they’ve changed in the last 10 years. Now, people are much more aware of indigenous burning, trying to do lots of small gentle fires to, to protect yourself against the monster.
Jenny Wheeler: Just from the outside world, those fires of a couple of years ago, the desperately sad thing for a lot of us is the way that it has affected the wildlife. And in particular, the koalas,
Adrian Hyland: No, it’s just incredible. It’s just shocking. I mean, three, 3 billion animals died in that fire. Koalas, kangaroos, wombats, just devastation., I’d thought a lot more animals would have techniques for surviving those things. They can survive little ones, but those big ones, they just can’t.
It’s just like an absolute. maelstrom descending upon them.
Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned about the fire techniques have changed, have other things changed? Do you think there is more of an awareness now of the need to accommodate climate change?
‘It’s all about the economy’
Adrian Hyland: No, I don’t think that. I wish that was the case. People are generally accepting it, but I think in Australia at least where we’re so dependent on fossil fuels, the people in power are having to, having to be dragged, kicking, and screaming towards it.
I noticed the election just called now, our prime minister – the first thing he goes is “it’s all about the economy.” Well, you’re not going to have much of an economy if your environment’s destroyed.
Jenny Wheeler: Turning from talking about the specific books, to your wider career. I see that you did start out experimenting in lots of different areas before you settled on the crime genre as possibly where you’ll spend most of your energy. Tell us a bit about that.
You did write poetry for its starters. What made you decide on the crime genre in the end?
Adrian Hyland: Look. I’ve written other things. I’ve tried a lot of poetry and different things. I published things in various magazines and things like that. But it’s really writing that. I love, I love words on the page and you know, I’ve always read crime.
I’ve always good quality crime. I remember when I was like, I grew up in a very working class sort of area where there are very few books and things around. I remember in, in the outers Western suburbs of Melbourne, but I remember. I was when I was in year seven, at our little high school, I was at Catholic school.
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Love of reading sprang from a simple gift
We had a book box, a new sort of single little room library was opening up. And the teacher who was in charge, got me and another student to help him do it for a day.
And when we’d finished, he gave us a book each, and one I happened to be given was one I’ve still got now, which was The Complete Sherlock Holmes stories, and novels too.
That was the first adult book I read, I think. And what a place to start, maybe what a writer. He’s just got that superb old English style and has got humor in there and vivid characters.
And I love that sort of writing. And I also – people like Raymond Chandler, for example, he’s got that incredible turn of phrase.
“She gave him a look that stuck six inches out of his back.” I just love those phrases, his humor.
I’m trying to think of others; “I’m an occasional drinker, the kind of guy who goes out for a beer and wakes up in Singapore with a full beard.”
Phrases like that. I try and put a lot of that humor. Into my work as well.
There wasn’t a huge amount of humor in Kinglake-350. I must admit.
Writing always was Adrian’s first love
Adrian Hyland: There was actually one joke, but no one’s ever commented. No one’s ever noticed except me. And that was there were three churches in Kinglake and. I said something like “The Uniting and the Anglican churches went to meet their maker, but the Buddhist temple didn’t.” That was as close as I got to a joke in that book.
Jenny Wheeler: Talking a little bit about your earlier life. I mean, I’m not quite sure. Have you been writing all your life or was there a kind of epiphany moment where you thought “I’ve just got to get down and do something more coherent with my writing? “
Adrian Hyland: Absolutely. I was just always more interested in words on the page than anything else.
Like I said, I wrote a lot. I was always keeping journals, which is something I recommend to any young writer, but I was in my mid forties and I’d published a few poems and I was writing a lot of songs and playing music and stuff like that.
But I decided when I was in my forties, that I wasn’t getting anywhere much from a career perspective.
And I’d always loved crime, but I never actually tried to write it. So I made myself the goal of writing that first novel before I turned 50, which I did. I sat down.
Setting a goal; First novel by age 50
I’d got dozens and dozens of notebooks, and I sat down and particularly from when I was in the Territory, I sat down and read them all. And then over one summer over about three months, I wrote the first draft of a novel based on what emerged from my memory.
T was accepted quite quickly. And with a really good publisher – Text – in Melbourne and I’ve been going on from there.
Jenny Wheeler: Do we know what that book is? Diamond Dove? Oh, fantastic.
Adrian Hyland: Yes. That was my first novel. Yes, that’s right.
Jenny Wheeler: I was a bit confused because on Goodreads – I think Diamond Dove appears under another name. Is it Moonlight Downs or something?
Adrian Hyland: Oh, that’s right. In America. It was published in quite a few countries. Okay. But it had different names. Yeah, Moonlight Downs.
Jenny Wheeler: It’s a bit confusing.
Adrian Hyland: Jenny, watch out for the German version. It’s called Outback. Bastard, which confused even more people.
Landing on his feet in the Outback
Jenny Wheeler: What were you actually doing in the Outback?
Adrian Hyland: I was just working. I did arts and arts degree at Melbourne university, studying languages and literature and so on.
I did the sort of things you do when you get an arts degree. I went up to the Territory and did every sort of crap work I could get my hands on.
I worked in mines for a while, but my real interest was to learn more and spend time with indigenous people. And after I’d been there for a year or so, I got a job, running what you might call community development programs.
There was a big move in the fifties for people to come in from the desert country. And then in the eighties and nineties, when I was there, there was a strong move to help them move back onto their traditional country.
That’s the sort of work that I was doing. It was incredible work when I look back at it. It was wonderful for a while.
Driven by a desire for beauty and truth
Very traditional people who probably been 30 years old before they ever saw a white person. They had a way of looking at the world, which – maybe that’s what I was trying to describe before – when I mentioned the story about the snake.
Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And what were you doing in China? Because you, did you do Mandarin as part of your degree?
Adrian Hyland: Yes, I did Mandarin. And then I went and spent a year there when I left first left uni. My Chinese got a lot better, but then I didn’t go back there for many years, but again, I was driven by a love at all these exotic places that I lived.
I suppose I was always being driven by a desire to find truth and beauty and inspiration for my poetry and writing. I spent a year studying there at a university in Beijing, and then I didn’t go there at all for the next 15 years or so, but then I got a job teaching English as a second language.
When I left the Territory, I did that and I was working at a university in Melbourne at Latrobe where I’m still a staff member now. And they had this program where teachers would get sent over there to run preparatory sort of programs for students coming here.
China; A favorite place after Australia
I did quite a few of those as well. I love China. II’s my favorite spot in the world, I suppose, aside from Australia and I try and bring some of their sensitivity to some of the things that I write.
Jenny Wheeler: Great. Turning to Adrian as reader, because this is the joys of binge reading.
And it’s partly predicated on the idea that now people are turning to binge reading in the way that they do binge watching. Reading habits are changing because you can buy the next book in the series online at midnight, if you want to get it. I’m sure your tastes are, are very eclectic, but give us an idea of what you’re reading at the moment. And things you’d like to recommend to your own readers, the sort of thing that you write.
Adrian Hyland: Oh, right. Yeah. Well, look, the greatest writer I’ve come across. I, I love Mick Herron. We’ve had terrible lockdowns in Melbourne – well… Not terrible. I know, it’s essential for public health. But we’ve been locked down in Melbourne more than many other country in one of any other city in the world.
So I’ve been like everyone else have been doing a lot of reading. My two great joys that I came across were Mick Herron, who I presume is going to become famous now that there’s a TV series made of his books.
Do you know those, Jenny?
Jenny Wheeler: The TV series? I do know his name, but I don’t know the TV series.
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Adrian Hyland’s current favorite books
Adrian Hyland: I think he’s brilliant. And Ali Smith. The Scottish novelist is another person I really love. They’re not crime, I suppose they’re more literary, but they’re really fast, funny, witty sort of books.
I love David Mitchell. Yes. The novelist, not the poet, not the comedian.
Adrian Hyland: What else would I recommend? I’ve just been rereading one of my favorite Australian writer’s the poet, John Kinsella. Maybe not as well known, but he’s an extraordinary one of these writers.
Who’s got the gift of being able to manifest things rather than talk about them And I was just reading this poem, in which he describes the solar panel, sit leaning against the front bumper bar of a car as the sun’s going down and he describes it. So brilliantly, you can almost feel and see the light corruscating off.
Those are some good writers.
What if he had his time all over again?
Jenny Wheeler: They sound great. Looking back down the tunnel of time and looking over your own creative career. If you were doing it all over again, is there anything you’d change?
Adrian Hyland: Yes. I’d started writing crime earlier. I’d stop wasting my time. I’m sure they’re all building up some of the skills you need to write anything, and reading very eclectically – it’s wonderful to do that, but I felt like I was all over the place for a while there.
I wish I’d settled on a genre earlier. That said, there’s no point in regrets. I’m loving what I’m doing.
Jenny Wheeler: Tell us the next 12 months on your desk. What are you working on at the moment?
Adrian Hyland: I’ve got the next Jesse Redpath novel is due to be finished by the end of this year. I normally write them much slower and I’m frantically working on that while trying to keep up the quality as well. That’s my plan for now. Beyond that, I don’t really know.
Jenny Wheeler: Now I know you haven’t got much of an online presence. And usually I ask people about whether they like to interact with the readers and when the readers can find you online, do you encourage people to approach you online or do you prefer other methods of communication?
Where to find Adrian Hyland online
Adrian Hyland: As you mentioned, I’m a little bit tricky to track down. Not that’s not from any choice. I’m just too busy with the writing to have to do, to do too much Facebooking and Instagraming and those sort of things. But I know my kids kept telling me I should do it more I can be contacted via the LaTrobe University website – in the staff details and also going. through my publishers is a good way doing this – that’s Text publishing.
https://www.textpublishing.com.au/
[email protected] ·
I get the odd email or letter passed on from them.
Jenny Wheeler: And I’ll certainly make sure that that link for your publishers is in the show notes for this episode. That will make it easier for you to be found. Look, it’s been great talking today, Adrian. Thank you so, so much.
Adrian Hyland: Uh, thank you so much for your interest, Jenny and I look forward to meeting you one day.
What to listen to and read next…
If you enjoyed hearing about Adrian Hyland you might also enjoy another Australian crime writer, Garry Disher, and his Gold Standard Crime
https://thejoysofbingereading.com/garry-disher-gold-standard-crime/
Jenny Wheeler: Next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading, Liese Sherwood-Fabre gives a new angle on Sherlock the adolescent, before Sherlock Holmes became the world’s greatest consulting detective and scandal rocked the Holmes, family.
The Liese Sherwood-Fabre series features a teenage Sherlock saving the family from disaster in a fresh take on a mystery that brings to life details we’ve really only dreamed of.
Thanks To Our Technical Support:
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