Show notes
Estelle Ryan took a big risk creating Dr Genevieve Lenard, the brilliant body language expert and international investigator who’s the lead character in her art fraud mystery series – because she also registers on the Autism spectrum..
Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Estelle tells us she needn’t have worried. Readers love Genevieve’s honesty and vulnerability, and the series has grown strongly to 12 books with a 13th coming soon.
Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode:
Why readers say they love Dr Genevieve – her autistic lead character
How she chooses the artists who showcase the series
Her passion for music and how its reflected in her work
Why she’s a ‘coffeshopaholic.’
Writing Afrikaans romance -when its her second language
The writers she admires most
Where to find Estelle Ryan:
Website: http://estelleryan.com/books.html
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/EstelleRyanAuthor/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/estelle_ryan
What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions.
Jenny: And now here’s Estelle. Hello there Estelle and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us.
Estelle: Thank you so much Jenny, it’s lovely being here visiting with you.
Estelle Ryan – Mystery author
Jenny: Beginning at the beginning – was there a “Once Upon A time moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction? And if there was a catalyst, what was it?
Estelle: Yes- I do believe in my life there was more than just one moment that led up to this. There was a defining moment for me when I was in Grade 4. We were finished with our syllabus for the semester and the teacher asked me to tell a story.
So I got up in front of the class and I told them about how the aliens landed in our backyard the night before, and all the conversations and stories I had with them! I described all of them, and the kids loved it.
After this, the teacher told me that if I didn’t write children’s stories one day, I’d be making a huge mistake. And it stuck with me. I’m not writing children’s stories because my imagination is not quite in that direction, but I think that opened up my mind to more suggestions from different people, different situations that led me to this point where I’m now writing fiction.
Jenny: Yes, that’s a great story and it sounds like you were made for fiction, doesn’t it!
Estelle: Yes, I really remember the story about the aliens and thinking; where did I get this from?! But it also kind of explains when I’m not reading crime, I am reading science fiction- it might explain that too, me and my aliens!
Jenny: Your Genevieve Lenard mysteries have reached to Book 12 – a feat in itself! But am I right in thinking you began by writing romance?
The Gauguin Connection – Book One in the series
Estelle: That is correct, yes. I wrote for a South African publishing house and I wrote in Afrikaans, which was an incredible challenge for me because it’s not my first language. The language itself, the vocabulary is not as extensive as English. It was an incredible learning curve for me and very valuable.
I had to learn how to describe things when I didn’t have the right vocabulary, and I gained an incredible respect for romance writers, because I realised how incredibly hard it was to write a romance that was light enough to enjoy and silly enough in its own way- yet also one that is emotionally engaging.
I wrote seven very short romance novels, and then I thought no, this isn’t my genre. This is not what I want to write. This is not my language; it was really hard. When I wrote the first Genevieve book, it was like coming home. It just felt so comfortable, but I had learnt so much writing the romance novels. It was fun too.
Jenny: What made you move on from romance to mystery? Why not science fiction with your attraction to aliens?
Estelle: That’s a very good question, me beginning with aliens! As much as I do enjoy science fiction, my mind is totally blown by the skill creation in the minds of science fiction writers. It’s incredible. They’re amazing; they make up these entire different universes. But that’s not quite where my mind goes. I’ve always been an extremely avid mystery reader, and I love the puzzle, the complexity of the plots and all of that. I just loved it. That’s why I decided on mystery.
Jenny: The Genevieve Lenard series are international art themed mysteries and Dr Lenard is a high functioning expert in body language who is also on the Autism Spectrum . Did it feel risky to develop this character at the beginning?
Genevieve Lenard series #3 The Dante Connection
Estelle: And she is a difficult character. When I started writing Genevieve and developing the series, I wanted a character that had internal struggle. I didn’t want it to be one of the average mystery novels that you find; the detective who is an alcoholic, or the detective who has major marital problems or who has a horrible boss.
I wanted somebody who was fighting her own internal struggles and winning, even though sometimes she’s losing too. I realised that to be true; to keep the integrity of the spectrum of autism, I couldn’t make her neurotypical or easy. I was very pleasantly surprised at how well perceived she was in the first book, because I expected a lot more negative reviews because of her. She is a challenging character, but I wanted it and I was willing to take the risk.
Jenny: Yes, it is to your credit that although she is difficult, you make it understandable why she is reacting that way. Perhaps you manage to keep the public sympathy for her- the reader’s sympathy- as they’re reading.
Estelle: I try to. It was actually quite interesting; in the third book, I started writing in third person. I was probably about one third into the book when I realised it wasn’t working. I changed it to first person. Telling it from her perspective, it puts us into her mind.
Talking about keeping the public sympathy and creating an understanding of what she’s going through; it’s through putting us through her mind as she is going through this which gives us a much better understanding of her thought processes, her panic, obsessions and all of that.
Jenny: That’s right. And you have often been asked I know, if someone close to you is autistic because you do have a remarkable empathy for the character. I know that you’ve given this reply a number of times, but how do you answer that question?
Estelle: No, that is the simple answer. I don’t have anyone close to me, and I am not on the spectrum. Where and how the empathy came from, I don’t know. When I started doing the research, I just felt such a connection and such an understanding of what these people are going through.
I can’t claim to truly understand it because I am not on the spectrum, but it’s there. I do have people close to me with other mental health issues, most of it being depression which I think we are all familiar with. I think this is also something that encouraged me to use a challenge that is not often spoken about or depicted in fiction in a very positive way.
A lot of the characters on the spectrum depicted on TV or in movies or depicted in fiction are very awkward, to the point of being unlikeable and rude- although Genevieve has her rude moments. Also, they seem like losers. I didn’t want that for her. I think that for a lot of people who are struggling, whether it be on the spectrum or fighting with depression, the pressure to be like everyone else is overwhelming at times. I wanted to write a book where it was OK to be different.
The Braque Connection – Estelle Ryan
Jenny: Yes, and I think that you say about being a success; that’s really appropriate too because quite a number of books that have mental illness are often quite depressing themselves. The people aren’t particularly successful in their lives are they?
Estelle: Yes- nothing in Genevieve’s life is orthodox. Her relationships are not, her friendships are not, and definitely not the way she approaches it. Obviously I had to create a circle of friends around her that were maybe more understanding than the average person on the street, but since none of them live orthodox lives it may make it much easier to create them as more understanding. But that’s it- I didn’t want somebody who was failing in their own life, even though it was a daily struggle for her.
Jenny: Several of your secondary characters have also developed strong identities – Vinnie the bodyguard chef for one. . . And readers have even been suggesting you should do a Vinnie recipe book?
Estelle: Non- stop, everybody’s asking me for a recipe book and I have such a giggle about it! I think I should stick to something I’m good at. A recipe book; I can’t even write a fictional recipe book!
I enjoy cooking, but I’m a lazy cook. I just throw everything in together until it tastes good. This is my kind of cooking, which I suppose could also be a recipe book. But Vinnie would definitely be very unhappy with me. So no recipe book as of yet- but never say never! You may never know.
Jenny: Do you think that one day Vinnie might have his own series?
Estelle: No. Again, never say never but it’s a very good question that you ask there. I don’t see any of the other characters veering off on their own. The team is far too interwoven and working together to want to separate one of them.
Jenny: Each book is themed around an artist – whose name appears in the title . . . How do you choose your artists – and have you got some favorites you already want to use in coming books?
Estelle: Every book is a different process when choosing an artist. Sometimes the art itself plays an important role in the plot; sometimes the history of the artist plays an important role in the plot. Sometimes the era plays an important role, and depending on that is how I make the decision.
At the end of the day, there’s also some more pragmatic factors that I have to keep in mind, like the artist’s name. It has to fit on the cover. If the name is too long, it has to be squashed up or divided to fit on the book cover. If it’s too short, it doesn’t look good. So I also have to keep that in mind. I think it was with Dante – I wrote most of the story before the artist clicked with me. I had to go back and do some editing, because the plot really involves Dante- both Dante’s. Every book is different.
Jenny: Oh that’s interesting because I was wondering if you decided on the artist first and everything else was dictated by that choice .
Estelle Ryan #4 The Flinck Connection
Estelle: No, not at all. There are few things that dictate the plot before the artist; I make a decision on what kind of technology I want to include in the specific book. Each book has its own weird kind of technology. Bioweapons and drones, and 3D printing, I had all these kinds of things that are included in the books. That for me is maybe a little bit more important in developing the plot, where the artist is also important but it plays a different role.
Jenny: How have readers responded to Genevieve? What do they tell you they like about her and the books generally?
Estelle: Like I said earlier- I was really surprised at how positive the response was to Genevieve. The feedback that I get a lot about her is how many people can connect to her, and understand and identify with her.
Even people who are completely neurotypical; there are certain characteristics in her. I think also the fact that she’s so honest about who she is, because there’s a freedom in that that a lot of us don’t feel. Society doesn’t give us the freedom to just be who we want to be. There’s so much unspoken social pressure that we feel we have to comply to, that she’s real.
Estelle Ryan loves her coffee!
People love the fact that she’s so real, and she’s trying so hard, she’s making an effort to not change, but to understand and incorporate other thinking into her life. About the books- I think this is one of the biggest compliments I got about my writing and about the books, is that so many readers talk about how when they read a book, it feels like they are visiting with good friends or family. They really love the team, the friendship, understanding, support and relationship. They love Vinnie’s cooking! Even the arguments that they have between them in the team and the struggles they all go through; I think that is the thing readers connect with, and it’s the thing they enjoy.
Jenny: You’ve said you’re a coffeeshopaholic who does a lot of her writing in sympatico coffee shops . . I’m wondering how you don’t get distracted!! Can you give us an insight into your working process . . .
Estelle: I choose the coffee shops very carefully. The music is important- if the music is too loud, I can’t focus. If it’s too energetic or not for my mood for that day for that matter, then I cannot. I’m very good wth cutting out external noise, but if somebody’s having an incredible, fun conversation next to me and there’s people laughing next to me, that’s also distracting. Then I’ll pack up my stuff and go either back home and work there, or to another coffee shop and work there. I don’t always not get distracted- there are times when I’m simply just not in the mood. I can work in my office, in the living room or in the garden. But the coffee shop all depends on the mood.
Jenny: Yes; I’m interested that you mentioned the music because in the Genevieve books music features very strongly. She uses music to calm herself and help her to concentrate. On your website you’ve listed accompanying art works and music for each book – which I love – and I note there’s a lot of Mozart featuring there. Is music a personal passion of yours?
Mozart – a calming influence in Genevieve’s life
Estelle: Oh definitely, it’s a huge part of my life. I have a classical background in music, but also have that very deep love for jazz and blues. When I’m cleaning my house, I need heavy metal. That gives me the angry energy I need to clean the house! But music plays a huge role in my life. But really what I did when I started writing this series is I took all the passions in my life; politics, history, geography, technology, music and psychology- I threw it all together and stirred it around a bit and started the series.
Moving to a more general focus, away from specific books to your wider career
Jenny: Is there one thing you’ve done in your writing career more than any other that’s been the secret to your success?
Estelle: No, really no. I think it really is a combination of everything. Maybe in one period it is more of one thing then in another period, but at the end of the day the secret it to sit down and write. That is the secret, which is not always that easy! Maybe the secret in my life is my self discipline- the fact that I am so determined to have a routine, to do the writing, research and the best that I can. But I can’t pick out anything specific, no.
Jenny: Certainly to have written twelve books in a series you have got persistence and determination in oodles!
Estelle: Well some people may see it as being stubborn, but you’re right- determined is a much better word!
Jenny: You’ve written for numerous international magazines and edited a life style magazine – what topics did you most enjoy covering – and how has this experience influenced your fiction?
Estelle: It’s definitely the curiosity that comes as a journalist. This is the best and worst part of our character; being curious of asking questions and more questions. I remember when I was very little, I didn’t ask just the normal “why” questions. I remember when I was younger four years old, I was sitting outside with my dad and he was polishing his shoes. I said to him, “dad, can you explain to me what is exactly the problem with this Middle East thing? Why can’t they just make peace?”
I remember my dad looking at me with shock on his face! I’ve always had quite a lot of interest in the world around me and I loved the journalistic part of being able to ask questions as being a journalist. Asking questions and getting those answers gave me so many new perspectives, that I realised that life can be so much more interesting looking through different sets of eyes. It definitely had a huge influence on my writing.
Jenny: And the lifestyle magazine- what kind of focus did it have? Was it materials, or gardens or a mixture of everything?
Estelle: The lifestyle magazine was for expats, and it was based on surviving in a foreign country.
Turning to Estelle as reader
Jenny: The series is called “The Joys of Binge Reading” because I see it as providing inspiration for people who like to read series . . . .So – turning to your taste in fiction who do you “binge read” ?
Estelle: The top of my list would be Daniel Silva; I’m a huge fan. I love his work. Lee Child is another- his books are just guaranteed entertainment. It’s lighter reading than Daniel Silva but I love it. I love the larger than life heroes that he has. Johnathan Kellerman is another I love. I haven’t recently read any of Nelson DeMille’s books, but I have done a lot of binge reading on him. Ian Rankin is another, I’ve also enjoyed his books.
Jenny: Yes, they’re all very big names aren’t they? They’ve made their way in the world, that’s right.
Daniel Silva latest work – Estelle’s a fan
Circling back to the end
(I see this as a bit of a narrative)
Jenny: At this stage in your career, if you were doing it all again, what would you change – if anything?
Estelle: That is such a hard question. If I were doing it all again, I don’t think I would change anything. I think I would from the beginning, try to have a better routine and to force myself more to relax, because I do a total Genevieve hyper focus, workaholic thing. But writing itself, no. I think I needed to go through the process to learn what I had learned, so I’m happy with that.
Jenny: And publishing has changed a lot over the period you’ve been working too, hasn’t it?
Estelle: Incredibly! The whole landscape has changed with self publishing, and of course with e-books and how the marketing happens, and how books are so much more easily accessible now than they were before. It’s amazing, and it continues to change non- stop. It’s quite interesting to watch.
Jenny: What is next for Estelle as writer? New projects under development?
Estelle: Book 13- that is what I’m working on at the moment, so the next “Connection” Genevieve Lenard book. Then I have something else in the back of my head that is separate from the Genevieve series that I’m playing around with.
I’m not finished with Genevieve yet- there are still many more stories that need to be told. I’m also very linear in my work – I only write one book at at time. I marvel at writers who can write two or three books at a time! So at the moment I’m only writing one book at a time, and that’s book 13.
Jenny: How long does it take you to do a book?
Estelle: It really depends on the planning and writing. The planning can take me one week or three months. The writing can take me two weeks or six months. It depends on so many things, most of it my mood which is really not such a good thing! But then life happens, and I really need to get the plumber in and that takes the whole day, and then I lose a day of writing. You know how it goes! But generally I end up spending about 5 months on a book, from beginning to end.
Jenny: And it does sound like you’re an outliner and plotter rather than a pantser!
Estelle: Oh, completely! How is it possible to sit in front of an empty screen?! I just think it’s amazing that other writers can do that. I need a plan, I need to know where I’m going. So yes, I do a lot of planning. By the time I actually start writing the narrative and the dialogue, I hav everything planned. I know exactly what’s going to happen in the next scene, the next chapter until the end.
Jenny: I think that might be a journalistic thing as well, because when you’ve worked as journalist you know that you’ve got a structure that you’re working to and it gives you confidence.
Estelle: That is true. I hadn’t actually thought about that; that’s a very good point. I always have been a planner, and I think that’s why I enjoy the journalistic side of things. I enjoy sorting out the structure before I start writing so I know how to form and lead the story to the next point. But that’s a very good point, thank you!
Jenny: I’m a planner as well, and I just couldn’t imagine sitting down – it would just feel wrong to do it that way!
Estelle: And it’s so interesting; when I listen to other writers, when they say they cannot imagine planning a book- I read one writer who said she planned a book, and for her it was the most torturous moment to write the first two chapters and she gave up. She simply couldn’t write that book. So she scrapped it and started with an empty page! I just thought- no, that’s not for me. It’s so fascinating how our brains work; there is really no ‘One Size Fits All’ in this creative industry of ours.
Jenny: One thing that I’ve wondered- have any of the autistic professionals and societies picked up on Genevieve and made contact with you abut the Genevieve series? Have you had any approaches with people congratulating you or asking you to talk at conferences?
Estelle: Not talking at conferences, but I’ve had quite a few people from the autistic society reach out to me. A lot of the the people have autism in their family so it’s not that professional. But I had two professionals who deal particularly in the autistic field, and I’ve had quite a few nurses and teachers who have read Genevieve and say she’s like one of the students in their class, or who they work wth everyday; it was exactly like that which for me is so important, because I want to be true to the spectrum. I don’t want to normalise or romanticse it. So that feedback was important to me.
Jenny: Where can readers find you on line?
Estelle: Oh that’s very easy! It’s estelleryan.com. I’m also on Facebook, although I’m not very active on there- I do have pictures of when I travel and I’m quite engaging with the readers and fans on Facebook. But the easiest is estelleryan.com.
Jenny: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much for your time today, it’s been a real pleasure to talk.
Estelle: Thank you Jenny, it was lovely speaking to you.
Jenny: All the very best, I’ll look out for the next Genevieve with interest!
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