Critics rave about the unexpected and clever plot twists in Fiona Davis’s historical bestsellers, dual timeline stories set in the Big Apple’s most iconic buildings, from the Chelsea Hotel to Grand Central Station and the Dakota building to the Barbizon. Hi there. I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today in the 98th episode of The Joys of Binge Reading, Fiona talks about the famous and sometimes eccentric people who bring New York – and her books to life. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: What excites Fiona about historic hotels The thing that shocked her most researching her latest book Why New York is a great place to set novels The 100th anniversary of The Age of Innocence How film is influencing fiction What she’d do differently second time around Where to find Fiona Davis: Website: www.fionadavis.net Facebook: @FionaDavisauthor Twitter: @fionajdavis Instagram: @fionajdavis What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word, but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here’s Fiona. Hello there Fiona, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Fiona Davis, historical fiction author. Fiona: Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here. Jenny: Now this is the question I always start with, but it never gets stale. Was there and Once Upon a Time moment for your fiction writing, a moment when you thought ‘I’ve just got to do this’ or I will have wasted my life. The ‘Once Upon A Time’ moment Fiona: That’s a great question. Yes, and it came to me later. I was in my late 40s when it hit. What happened was, I had been working as a journalist for a number of years and there was a story that I thought would make a great article about the Barbizon Hotel and some of the older tenants who were still living there, as it was turned into luxury condos. And I thought oh, what a great story – it represents the change in the city and the building, over time, but the women who live there were very private and they would not be interviewed. I just couldn’t shake it. And I thought ‘All right. You know what? I’m going to make this into a book and I will write it.’ That means I have to make stuff up and that’s very scary. The Dollhouse – Fiona Davis’ first novel, set in the Barbizon Hotel, New York. But I was really determined and I’m so glad I did it. It’s just it took my career in a completely new direction, which has been really fulfilling. The Chelsea Girls – latest book Jenny: It’s wonderful. You’ve now got four best-selling historical novels to your credit, and the most recent of them, The Chelsea Girls, is also focused on another very famous New York hotel, the Chelsea Hotel, which is almost notorious because of the numerous luminaries that have lived there, everyone from Dylan Thomas to Janis Joplin. Tell us about the Chelsea. Fiona: Yes, sure. So, the hotel really intimidated me as an idea for setting a book there, because so many people have passed through its doors. It was built in 1884 as kind of a utopian cooperative, but that didn’t work and it went bankrupt and it became a hotel, but one where people could stay for years and sometimes even decades. For years it’s been this a hotbed of intrigue in terms of both art and politics and fashion, music, and poetry. It just was almost overwhelming – the thought of trying to create a story around that building – because there were so many to tell. The allure of the McCarthy Era I really started focusing in on the McCarthy era and 1950 and also the late 60s because that’s when it was really bubbling with creativity. And the more I dug, the more I learned about it, the more I thought yes, this is the perfect setting for a book because on top of everything, it has a secret tunnel, which as an author, you’re like, yes, that’s a gift. I’m gonna go with that. Jenny:Yes that’s right. And I gather from reading a little bit of the background on it that, you had a very strong source to help you with your research. A first-person authority who had actually lived through this period in the New York theater. Joseph McCarthy’s Red Scare – destroyed many innocent artist’s careers Fiona: Yes, exactly.A couple years ago I was introduced to Virginia Robinson who was born in 1909 and she spoke with such detail about what it was like for her being an actress not only in the USO tour during World War II but also later in New York City where she was an understudy for Fay Wray and Vivien Leigh and had this amazing career that lasted all the way until her death last year, at the age of 99. Remarkable recollections She was just incredible and her memories were so vivid! She talked about the McCarthy era which is really what set me down this road, where she talked about how actor friends of hers were targeted and listed in this book called Red Channels. And if you were listed in that, it meant that you had communist tendencies and would be blacklisted, which meant your career was over. So yes, it was just an incredible story she had to tell. Jenny: And I think that for a lot of us, we’re familiar with the way that McCarthyism intruded into the Hollywood scene and script writer’s careers were ruined, but possibly people weren’t so aware of the fact that it spread its tentacles to New York as well. And I must admit I was a bit shocked to read that it seems in some aspects, it was almost like a shakedown. That if people had enough money, they could buy their way back into favor. The Red Channels Scam Fiona: Yes. Exactly. That was what I was so shocked to find as well, that it was really a racket, where the same company that published Red Channels which listed everybody who was blacklisted, if you wanted to clear your name, you could go to the same company that published it and pay them two hundred dollars and get your name cleared. But at the same time if you did that you still had to list names of people who also were Communists. So you still had to throw your friends under the bus and some people did and went on to fantastic careers. You have Jerome Robbins. You have Elia Kazan, who named names and then others who didn’t, who were right on the cusp of these incredible careers. who have just been lost to history. We don’t know the plays that were never written or the performances that we never saw because these people never achieved what their talent meant for them too. And that’s such a tragedy. The Dakota building – Central Park neighborhood The infamous Dakota building Jenny: Yes. It sounds like there could still be lots of amazing stories there. Fiona: I think so, most definitely. Jenny: Hmm. You seem to have a thing about hotels, because your second novel, The Address was set in the Dakota and for people of my generation that place is made famous by the fact that it was where poor John Lennon was attacked and died. Why do you think hotels attract you and why do they make a great setting for a novel do you think? Fiona: In fact, my first book which was set at the Barbizon Hotel for women which was also a hotel, but the Dakota has always been an apartment house. It was kind of confusing the way New Yorkers set up their residences back in the 1800’s. The Dakota was meant to be one of the first apartment houses in New York, and I just love writing about buildings where people lived, because you have not only the resident’s stories you have the servant’s stories as well. Upscale apartment in NY swamp And also how things were built like the Dakota. That was built up in the wilds of New York where it was just swampland and goats and shanties and they created this luxury building, using all the best materials and it was a real risk at the time. So it’s a fun thing to write about from an author’s point of view because there’s so much at stake. And I think it’s just wonderful to cram a lot of people together and have them interact. You just have inherent drama. Jenny: Yes. Sure. You’ve set all of your books in New York, although I gather you were born in Canada yourself? Fiona: Yes exactly. The importance of settings Jenny: But you’re a dyed-in-the-wool New Yorker now? Do you think there’s a coming of age for the city as a setting for historical novels? I mean, I’m rather interested because Regency England has got such a throat hold on romance. You can almost hardly write romance without setting it in Regency and it excites me to find other settings that are getting some traction. Do you think New York is going to continue to grow as an attractive setting? Fiona: I hope so. I don’t think anything will compete with Regency England, and Regency romances -some of them – are just the finest thing to read. I mean, I love that genre and absolutely respect it. But New York has been the setting for a lot of literary fiction. Gilded Age New York And for historical fiction, it’s wonderful because the city has really changed over time, yet a lot of the buildings haven’t, so you have these layers of ghosts who lived within their walls and also the city just attracts people who are looking for something. And that creates drama and always makes for a good story, to have someone come here be overwhelmed, figure things out and go on to survive and thrive. Jenny: Yes. I was interested to come across a historical romance author called Joanna Shupe. I’m not sure if you’re aware of her work, but she’s getting some traction setting romance novels in Gilded Age New York. She has done four or five of them now set it sit in Gilded Age New York. So that’s quite fun to see something like that coming through. The Vanderbilts and the Astors Fiona: Oh, I love it. I think that’s a great time in history. And that’s when the Dakota was built, in 1884. And so part of the book I wrote about that, called The Address, was set in the Gilded Age and it was just so rich. Literally! Jenny: The social rivalries between the factions I think – perhaps more the early 1900’s – but the Vanderbilt’s and the Astor’s that makes a great period. Fiona: Yes. That is Gilded Age to a tee. That is just so much fun. Jenny: So what drew you to historical fiction? I know you said that it was The Barbizon that grabbed your attention, but is there something about the historical aspect that really appeals to you? Gilded Age New York dinner party Writing fiction as a ‘time traveller’ Fiona: You know, I think it comes from my parents. They are both English and we would travel back to England to visit relatives when I was a kid. To break up the journey from relative to relative, we’d stop and visit these estates and castles. We always hit the Tower of London and so I just loved the idea of how old everything was and just the many people who’d lived within the walls of all these amazing buildings and I think part of me wanted to time-travel back and see what it was like to be a maid in the Tower of London, say in the 1700s. Or an aristocrat in the 1800s. And so part of me, in writing historical fiction, is wanting to time travel. I’m pretty sure of it. The Age of Innocence turns 100 Jenny: That’s lovely. You mentioned the literary fiction that New York is so well known for and I see on your website that you’re taking part in an event in January to honor the 100th anniversary of the publication of Edith Wharton’s The Age of Innocence, her Pulitzer Prize-winning novel about Gilded Age New York. I know that genre fiction is slightly different from literary fiction, although these days there is quite a blending of the boundaries between them. But do you feel that you’re part of a tradition in what you’re doing? The Age of Innocence – the movie. The book has its 100th anniversary, January 2020. Fiona: Oh my goodness. I would be honored to be part of that tradition. You know, I think we deal with a lot of the same themes about the rules of society and the consequences of breaking them. Kind of reconciling old and new in terms of how things change over time, especially just how women’s voices and agency have changed over time. Women fighting for their place And every one of my books has a character who is really struggling with where she is in the world and what her place is and the fact that she maybe is divorced or has something, you know, have something different going on about her, or she wants a career in the fifties when everybody else wanted to be wives, or were supposed to be wives. And so just living up to society’s expectations is something I find fascinating, which of course she does so brilliantly. Jenny: I think you’ve also expressed very well the appeal that historical fiction has for modern readers. Would you say that there has been a real upswell of stories that focus on women’s stories and the women who did try to break the barriers. Is that part of its appeal to modern readers? The joys of house-keeping Fiona: Do you know I definitely think so. Just to see how far we’ve come and yet how far we still have to go? In my first book, I quote from an actual article from a woman’s magazine that I found that talked about this. It listed the best part time jobs for women because it said that working full-time cuts too deeply into the satisfactions of housekeeping. And of course, you wouldn’t want to do that. And this was an actual article in a woman’s magazine. And so, you can just see how if you read something like that today you would think well, you know, that’s insane. That’s crazy. But back then that was the norm and so it’s really fun to see those changes over time. And I think that’s why there is such an appeal in historical fiction to today’s readers. Be in for the Book Club Skype-In Jenny: I guess we have to also remember that the’ joys of housekeeping’ in those days was actually a lot more time-consuming because we didn’t have so many tools to help us with it. Fiona: That’s a very good point right, ironing was not like ironing today. Jenny: Nor was washing for that matter. I see on Twitter that you’re offering – and I thought this was great. I’ve never seen it before – a Skype-In for Book Clubs, if they’re reading The Chelsea Girls. They can have a Skype-In with you. It is a draw on Twitter and Facebook. Do you do this often and how does it work? Fiona: It’s so much fun because you know, I often visit book groups that are in the city or nearby which is just so much fun because you really can talk about a wide variety of things in that context. How the Skype-In works It’s not like me going to a bookstore and talking about my book and then answering certain questions. It’s more interactive. And so what they do is they get everything set up and Skype-In and ask me questions and we talk about the book and we all have a glass of wine and you know, it doesn’t matter if they’re in Kansas or Texas it just feels really comfortable and fun. I love doing it. Jenny: Because I’m a New Zealand it seems to me that it would be quite an opportunity to extend it internationally. If you had the time zone right, it still wouldn’t be completely impossible and it would be a completely new thing for New Zealand readers. Fiona: I’m sure oh, absolutely. I think that would be great. They should definitely enter. I think that would be fun. Jenny: How do you stop them all talking on top of each other. Do you have a sort of MC who gives a little nod to somebody – ‘your turn now?’ Plotting and the creative process Fiona: Yes. Usually there’s a ringleader, and they guide the discussion, but it flows really naturally because everybody’s in the same room together. It’s not like we’re all coming in on different speeds. And so it really is just easy and flows quite well. Jenny: Critics rave about your unexpected and clever plot twists. You are a great storyteller in your plotting. I wondered if you could give us an idea about how the process of your creation works. I imagine that you must do quite a bit of outlining rather than being what they call a pantser – a person who writes by flying by the seat of your pants, but tell us how you approach it. The Address – Fiona Davis Fiona: Yes, sure. Thank you so much. I love a good plot twist, and I love books that have a sense of mystery that keep you turning the page, where you’re trying to find out what’s going to happen and you’re surprised by it. And because I work in two time periods and go back and forth i have to plot it out really carefully. An important role for Post It notes Because if I give away too much of one thing about the mystery in one timeline, it’ll affect the other, so it’s a pretty painful process, but it’s so much fun as I see if I can pull it off. If I can make that plot twist work and surprise my agent and surprise my editor and then surprise the readers . . . and so what I do is this. I do a lot of research about the building and figure out the real structure of the historical background and usually that infuses the characters and the plots. And then I put it on sticky notes – ideas for scenes – and then I arrange them. And there are two different stickies. It’s very very high-tech. There are two different Post-it notes. Each color represents a different timeline and then I can weave them together and from that I create an outline and start writing and things change, but it tends to track pretty closely if I’ve done it, right. When characters won’t behave Jenny: One of the criticisms about outlining is that you limit the kind of possibilities of characters developing their own agency. Do you ever find that characters take off in a direction that you weren’t expecting or refuse to do what you want them to do? Fiona: Yes, definitely and if that happens it means I have to go with it, you know, I remember writing a scene for The Chelsea Girls where the two characters are in love and as I was writing it they started breaking up, which they weren’t supposed to do then. And it was like watching my parents fight. I was like, wait, what are you guys doing? Stop! No, no! But I went with it and it was exactly right for the book. It propelled the story forward in a way that it needed to be propelled. So I’ve learned to trust and not get too into my engineering of everything, because that can cut the fun. Motivation at the deeper levels Jenny: Yes. It’s the motivation of the characters, isn’t it? Sometimes they may know at a deeper level than usual just exactly what is motivating them. Fiona: Yes, exactly. I can tell you write! Yes. Jenny: Someone said that if you feel as if you’ve come to a bit of a dead end in your story if things just aren’t working, the problem probably is that you haven’t understood the motivation of your characters, and so go back and look at that. I find that works every time. If you just have a bit of a brainstorm, almost like a daydream, asking them what they going to do next, it suddenly all frees up again. Fiona Davis – The Masterpiece Fiona: Yes. Oh absolutely. That’s exactly what you have to do. You just have to go back to the source, which is the character, and what they want and what are the obstacles in their way? How fiction differs from journalism Jenny: Yes. Fantastic. Have you found that writing fiction is very different from your journalism? Fiona: Yes. Oh definitely. You know you’re making things up, which in journalism you do not do and so, when I was first writing dialogue I thought oh no, this is you know, this is crazy. How do you do this? But I really just went and studied books that I love and asked what was their structure and how did they pull it off and just got more and more involved in it. And now I absolutely love the freedom that it offers. Jenny: Yes. and I guess you’ve probably dropped all the journalism, have you? Fiona: Yes, at this point I’m doing about a book a year. So it is all hands on deck. Being an actor and director helps Jenny: Turning to your wider career, as we’ve mentioned you had experience in both theater and journalism before becoming a novelist. How do you think that your previous work experience has influenced and perhaps helped your work? Fiona: I think what we were just talking before, about dialogue. Having read a lot of plays, I think that helped in terms of when I did have to write dialogue, because I’d seen how playwrights do it, with just words. You don’t tell what your characters thinking, that’s up to the actor. And so again that helped and also through stage managing a scene has helped. Of okay, you’ve got someone standing. How do I make a dynamic, so it’s not just people sitting on a couch talking to each other. And so that that’s helped a lot. And in journalism, it’s from all the research I do, going out and talking to architectural historians and people who stayed at the hotels that I’m writing about and getting all that vivid detail to add to the book. The secret of Fiona’s success Jenny: If there’s one thing you’ve done, more than any other, that you’d see as being the secret of your success, what would it be? Fiona: You know, I think it’s that I set goals for myself. I’m one of those people who loves to check things off lists. And so if I have on my ‘to-do list,’ “1500 words” that day I do it just for the satisfaction of checking it off. It’s those small increments of work that count. Or okay. I’m going to edit two chapters today. By the end of the week, I’ll be here, and by three months you have a first draft and so it’s just by doing something every day, and getting fulfillment out of doing it, even though sometimes it’s just so painful and you know, the words aren’t coming or the edits don’t make sense. It’s that thing of just keeping at it, that’s really the key. How Fiona switches off and relaxes Jenny: Yes. And when it does get a little tiresome, have you got any tips for keeping the creative juices flowing? What do you do to reward yourself or give yourself a little break? Fiona: You know, I will go for a run. I live right near the Hudson River here in New York. So it’s really nice to go for a run along the river and just clear my head, and watch this huge body of water flowing. There’s something about that, that makes the, problematic character seemed manageable, I also love to go to plays and movies or watch something with a narration that’s completely different from mine. Just to reboot my brain as to how other people tell stories, I find that very helpful. The influence of film on fiction Jenny: Yes, writing has become quite strongly influenced by movies over the last decade hasn’t it? We have to be aware of how people are watching movies and some of our writing probably becomes a little bit more fast moving and full of imagery, I guess. Fiona: What I’ve noticed also recently is that the books I’m reading, instead of having a chapter that flows through five or seven pages, you’ll get a page and a half and then a break and then a page and a half and then another seen break. So it’s almost like you’re watching TV and it’s jumping from a scene to scene instead of a long flowing one, which is fascinating. And the authors who do it well, I find, I’m in awe of. Jenny: Yes, and I think that readers probably just accept that without even really noticing. Someone who isn’t a writer wouldn’t necessarily even notice that, but it would flow because they’re used to that scene flow in movies. The Secrets We Kept Fiona: Exactly. Yes, I’m finding it more and more which I find very interesting. Jenny: Can you think of a writer who is good at this? I’m sorry to put you on the spot. But can you think of a writer who does that? Fiona: Yes, the book I’m reading now is called The Secrets We Kept by Lara Prescott. hIt’s a big bestseller here, and it’s set a little after the McCarthy era. And it’s about the spies and people trying to get (the book of) Dr. Zhivago back into Russia where it’s banned as part of the Cold War. It’s really interesting. But there she breaks it up quite a lot, but it’s perfectly fine, you absolutely go along for the ride. Fiona as reader Jenny: Talking about Fiona as reader. This podcast is called The Joys of Binge Reading and it’s focused on writers who’ve done more than one book, a series or series of books that are related, that people can follow through on. So are you a binge reader and if so, who do you like to binge read? Eve Chase, The Wildling sisters – a favorite read. Fiona: You know, I was thinking about this and what’s interesting is they’re all based in the UK and Ireland which is so funny. There’s a writer called Eve Chase h and I just read her latest book. It doesn’t come out until next year. I got an early copy, but it’s called The Daughters of Fox Coat Manor. She’s also written a book called The Wildling Sisters and she sets books in manor houses in England with dual timelines and connections of mothers and daughters or families and she writes so beautifully and the minute one of her books comes out I leap all over it. Jo Baker and Tana French Another one is Jo Baker who wrote Longbourn which is Pride and Prejudice from the servants’ point of view. And I loved that book so much. I’ll read anything she writes. And also Tana French who does mysteries so beautifully. In Ireland with such great characters. So again, if that comes out, I’m all over it. Jenny: That’s the Canadian coming out in you, isn’t it? Fiona: I think so! Oh, isn’t it funny? Jenny: I haven’t heard of either Eve or Jo. I must look them up. I am very much aware of Tana’s work. So circling around, looking over the stretch of your writing career at this stage. If you were going back and doing it all over again, is there anything that you would change and if so what? Longborne – Jo Baker Pride and Prejudice from the servant’s viewpoint What, if anything, would change? Fiona: Such a good question. You know, I really feel like all of the mistakes I’ve made have been helpful in terms of making me look at something a different way, or approach something a different way. And again, because I started writing a little later in life. I don’t judge mistakes the way I might have when I was in my 20s. You know, it’s not the end of the world, if anything it’s a new opportunity, and I really understand that now so I don’t think I’d change a thing. I’m happy to be doing this now. I don’t think I would have been as happy if I’d had this success earlier. I really can appreciate it. I don’t think I’d change a thing. It’s been just an absolute laugh riot Learning the craft Jenny: Fantastic. So you obviously set out to be traditionally published, right from the start. Was that a bit of a struggle to break into? Fiona: You know, I lucked out in that I’d taken classes and online writing classes and I’d been writing as a journalist for a long time which helped. I’d gone to author panels and heard agents talk, and so I really got my agent from having heard her talk at a panel and sending her a manuscript and saying, you know, I heard you speak and you’re looking for strong female characters. So here. And I think all those small things helped me bump up the process a little bit, where everything just seemed to kind of fall into place. And again, I think it was just waiting until I had something to say in my life to write? Jenny: Yes. So that was The Dollhouse, was it? Fiona: Yes, What’s next for Fiona the writer? Jenny: I can see that with a network in place like that, you would have had some advantages, but still obviously the manuscript was right up to to it for it to be so straightforward. That’s fantastic. So what is next for Fiona the writer? Have you got a project in the works at the moment? Fiona: I do. It’s sitting right in front of me, so I do. The next book is going to take place at the New York Public Library, which is a beautiful building right on Fifth Avenue. It’s called the Lions of Fifth Avenue after the liens that are situated out front and I learned in my research that there was an apartment inside the library for the building superintendent to live in with his family and he lived there for about 20 years in this beautiful seven room apartment right in the heart of the library with his wife and a few kids and they would play baseball up in the reading room using books as bases until they got into trouble. Exploring new ideas And I just said well, that’s an interesting idea. It’s set in 1913 and 1993, at the library. And again, it’s about book theft and how women’s roles have changed over time. Jenny: Fantastic. Have you any temptation to change your own genre and do a straight romance or something that? Dual time line but over centuries rather than just you know, 30 or 40 years. Fiona: Yes. I do have a couple of ideas for that, and also different locations and possibly different structures. I love writers explore and try new things like the way Tana French did with her the witch Elm where she took it off in a different direction. So Yes. I look forward to playing around. Jenny: There’s one writer that I often mention because I love her work, and that’s a writer called Julia McElwain. She’s on the podcast, but she does mysteries where an FBI agent is transferred back into 1815. She’s doing it really well and she developed some romantic relationship there. The delight of dual time lines So now she’s got this quandary. She is still dying to get back to her home. I think she’s based in Washington. She’s dying to get back home to the 21st century, but she’s in a quandary about whether she leaves Alex behind or tries to bring him with her. Fiona: Oh, that sounds wonderful. Jenny: You obviously welcome interaction with your readers because of the Skype-In deal. How do people find you and where is the easiest way to reach you? Where to find Fiona online Fiona: Yes sure. So my website is Fionadavis.net And you can contact me through that with no problem. I’m on Twitter @FionaJDavis and also Instagram as @FionaJ Davis and I’m on Facebook as @FionaDavisAuthor and I do a lot on Facebook and Instagram. Less on Twitter. Jenny: Thanks, that’s great. I can vouch for the fact that you’re remarkably responsive. It’s been great to talk to you. Links to all of those sites will be included in the show notes for this episode so people will be able to just click on the link and get through to your books. It’s been wonderful talking Fiona. All the very best with the Lions of Fifth Avenue next year Fiona: Well, thank you so much Jenny, and I really appreciate being able to reach your readers and thank you for the invitation. This has been fantastic. Great questions. Okay. Thank you. Bye. Bye. If you liked Fiona Davis’ books you might also like: Jessica Fellowes, on The Mitford Murders series. Hear her talk about the series – and check out the latest one – Diana Mitford’s story in The Mitford Scandal. Thanks To Our Technical Support: The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical help from Dan Cotton at DC Audio Services. Dan is an experienced sound and video engineer who’s ready and available to help you with your next project… Seek him out at [email protected] or Phone + 64 – 21979539. He’s fast, takes pride in getting it right, and lovely to work with. Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20 years of experience on both sides of the camera/microphone as a cameraman/director and also voice artist and television presenter. Abe’s vocal delivery is both light hearted and warm and he is super easy to work with no matter the job. You’ll find him at [email protected]

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