Georgina Clarke’s heroine Lizzie Hardwick trades her life in a bawdy house to go under cover in a Drury Lane theatre in her latest 18th century mystery, alive with the sights and sounds of London. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and Georgina talks about why she chose a well-born woman fallen on hard times as the brave and determined protagonist in her historical crime series, and her double life as an ordained priest and novelist. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: The fascination of the 18th century The ‘novel in the bottom drawer’ syndrome Her double life as novelist and ordained priest The question that requires an answer How becoming a mother sparked her creativity The most important lesson a writer can learn Where to find Georgina Clarke: Facebook: https://www.georginaclarkeauthor.com/ Twitter: @clarkegeorgina1 Website: www.georginaclarkeauthor.com What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here’s Georgina. . Hello there Georgina and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. Georgina: It’s great to be here. Jenny: You’ve had a strong academic career before turning to writing fiction. And I wonder what motivated that transition? Was there a Once Upon A Time moment when you thought to yourself, I just must write fiction or somehow I won’t have done what I’m meant to do? And if so, was there a catalyst for it? Georgina Clarke – historical mystery author Georgina: Yes, there is. I’ve always written, and I’ve always enjoyed words and language. When I was a child, I invented stories. Of course, as a child, I used to do the illustrations as well, as you do when you’re a child. But I think life and adulthood, it’s kind of got in the way of the creative writing. But I suppose there was really a catalyst moment for me, about 8 1/2 years ago. I had a son. I gave birth, and I found giving birth really quite an extraordinary creative process, so physical, so visceral and unlike anything cerebral that I’ve done before. And it really unlocked, for me, that sort of creative need. Motherhood led to creative burst I found myself suddenly full of stories that I wanted to write. It was really that that got me going. And obviously, you know, trying to work and have a child. It’s not the best time to start trying to write fiction. But I found that when my son was in bed, at the end of the day, that was the point when I wanted to sit down and be creative. So, Yes, I think oddly, giving birth was a fairly major catalyst for me. Jenny: That’s a lovely story. It’s got such a romantic depth about it somehow. So you’ve now published two books in the Lizzie Hardwicke series. The first one, Death and the Harlot, and then the most recent one, The Corpse Played Dead. Your heroine Lizzie is a well-born woman who’s forced by circumstance into prostitution. That’s a very challenging place for a female protagonist to begin. And I wonder, how did Lizzie come about? Not necessarily Lizzie’s backstory, but your deciding about writing Lizzie’s story? Crafting a strong female voice Georgina: Well, I wanted to set the novels in the 18th century – the mid -18th century. I’ve always been interested in that period. It’s not the period that I write about academically. I’m a late 19th, early 20th century historian, but I’ve always been fascinated by the 18th century. And I wanted a strong female voice. I’m very committed to trying to allow women’s voices to be heard in history and in contemporary society. So, I wanted a strong female protagonist and I realized if I was writing crime, that I wanted somebody who could walk in different levels of society. I wanted someone who could mingle with the well-to-do. Certainly, with wealthy young men, but also who could literally walk the streets and have credibility walking the streets. I very quickly came to the conclusion that my protagonist would need to be a prostitute. I did a little bit of research into what we would call now the sex trade in mid-18th century London and found it absolutely fascinating. It gave me some real-life stories that I’ve woven into the fiction. And also, just ideas for plots and characters. I found it really very rich. So that’s how Lizzie came about. A brave and bawdy world Jenny: I think you have mentioned in an interview that attitudes to prostitution in the mid-1700s in Britain were quite ambiguous. Can you expand on that a little bit? Georgina: Well, it’s the usual story of double standards, I suppose. The idea that purity, that virginity, that chastity was very highly prized, particularly among women in higher levels of society. A woman would fall out of decent society if she was discovered having an affair or if she was known to have slept around or slept with certain people. And at the same time, you’ve got men visiting prostitutes. As I say, it’s that sort of double standard. I think also it depends on the double standards to do with your class and how rich or how poor you are. That’s probably what I mean by being ambiguous. The fairly well understood idea of double standards. Double standards ‘the norm’ Jenny: Like it was accepted, for particularly better, more well-off men, but actually men generally, to go to the brothels. But the women who were working on them were not acceptable. Georgina: So they’re deemed necessary, but they’re also deemed unworthy. Jenny: And I guess as a historian – because we haven’t mentioned what your academic qualifications yet – but you did a degree in theology and then PhD in history. So I guess the historical genre was the most obvious one for you to write in. I’m thinking about your choice of genre and that period. What was the real attraction of both? Georgina: Well, I think when we engage with history, what we’re actually engaging with is our own time. We look back to the past to try and find indicators for the present. I mean, the past is not just a collection of facts. How we arrange those facts when we’re writing history tells us what we think about our own society. It was fascinating for me because it tells us a lot about what we think today. Death and the Harlot – Book #1 in the Lizzie Hardwicke series Writing history for fun In my academic life, I’ve written about late 19th, early 20th century church history, particularly religious history. I’ve always been interested in women and women’s voices. But the reason I went back to the 18th century? Perhaps a little cheekily I felt I can write about the 18th century without having to worry too much about footnotes. I don’t have to worry about it professionally. I do still worry about accuracy. I mean, I try very hard. Even though the history is quite light, I do try quite hard to make sure that it’s properly researched. I wouldn’t want to have anything in there that simply wouldn’t have happened in the 1750s. But I can play with that. I think that’s why I’m attracted to it. I can play in the 18th century, whereas once we start moving into the latter part of the Victorian period or the Edwardian period, I have to be a bit more serious about things. Yes, I can play in 18th century, and as a teenager at school, we did the industrial revolution in Britain and I was really quite interested in that period from about the age of 14. Research an enduring passion In English schools, you don’t tend to do very much 18th century history. You might do a little bit. So that was really the only 18th century history I ever did. It seems like a good opportunity to go back and do a little bit of reading. I find it all very fascinating. I’ve been researching wine bottles just recently, just to give you some idea. How wine got into bottles in the 18th century. Jenny: Robert McKee, who’s a script guru that you may or may not have come across, he has said that historical stories, whether it’s TV or fiction, need to have some relevance or chord that strikes with contemporary readers or viewers to make them appreciate it. What do you think that chord might be in the 1750s? Georgina: Oh, very interesting question. I think the whole issue of power, of who holds power? Who have the loudest voices? I think attitudes to women and their place and their role in society are quite key. I think the idea that there’s one rule for the rich and one rule for the poor never quite goes away. And I think we’re seeing that – certainly in Britain at the moment and it seems to be the case over in the United States as well. Sadly, some of these sorts of issues never really go away. Whose voice is the loudest? How we deal with poverty, how we deal with people on the fringes of society, those sorts of questions. never quite disappear. Some of those are addressed in the first of the Lizzie books. Obviously I’m writing Book Three at the moment. So that’s quite a lot in my mind. It’s somehow easier to think about issues in the past. We have a greater freedom when we allow ourselves to think about things that happened in the past, I think. A woman’s place. . . . Fashion in the 1750s Jenny: We gradually learn a little bit more of the circumstances that have played to putting Lizzie where she is as the book’s progresses, but she very much refuses to have a victim, self-pitying attitude. She’s very pragmatic. I guess that as a writer it must be quite a tightrope to walk between being having empathy for her situation but not making her a victim. Is that what you’ve been working at? Seeing life the way Lizzie would Georgina: That’s right. I really didn’t want a victim. There are stories with historical abuse, historical rape and an idea that “This is what made the character strong.” And I really resent that a little bit. But I needed a reason for her to be in the circumstance she’s in. And I think her attitude to what has happened to her is that it is somehow her fault. That’s how she’s been brought up. That’s what she’s been led to believe. And that’s the story that she has told herself. It’s her own fault. It’s her own childish lust that has led her to her uncle and all that happened with him. But it’s also given her her new career, as it were. And I think I wanted her to be pragmatic about it. It also gives her quite an independent streak. She’s not going to rely on a man to rescue her. And she’s quite determined to sort herself out. I would say two things. Firstly, that she’s a narrator. We don’t yet know quite how reliable or unreliable her telling of the story is. Whose version do we believe? We only have her version of it. We might get some more of that later on. We as readers hearing her story, we might assume that what’s going on in her life is abuse, because that’s how we would understand it today. But that’s not how she understands it and it’s not how it would have been understood necessarily at the time. Jenny: Yes. I’m sure you began this with the view that it was going to be a series? Georgina: I did. Yes. Jenny: And have you got an idea of how many books? Have you got an overall story arc in mind of what the ending is going to be? Georgina: How many books? Well, I can tell you that every so often I have conversations with my agent and I terrify her. When I say, oh, well, yes, I’m thinking about Book Seven at the moment, her eyes widen. Learning to walk before running I think that the richness of the period means that I could have aspects of 18th century life going on for a while. I could tell you that there are certainly contexts and ideas swirling around to Book 7 at the moment, although I’m in the throes of writing Book 3, so I don’t want to feel that I’m running before I walk. Is there an overall story arc? I would say I would say story arcs. Yes there is character of Lizzie, but there is also William Davenport. There are stories around Mrs. Farley and some of the other girls in the house. So there’s more than one story that matters. Stories run through the books that I would like to explore. And yes, I know where the biggest stories are. Bow Street runners – England’s first police force – in action Jenny: We’re all watching, of course, the relationship between Lizzie and Mr. Davenport, the Bow Street runner, because it’s got such fantastic potential there. And obviously that must be a real fun thing to keep going. Enjoying romantic tension Georgina: I have to say unresolved sexual tension is definitely great fun to write. I love it. And I find that whenever he arrives, whenever I’m writing the two of them and their conversations, I mean, I just write smiling because I love the two of them together. And what’s interesting is that readers who have read the second book as well as the first – and the second book does develop that relationship.- Well, it sort of cranks up the sexual tension for a little bit. The readers have really responded to them. And to their relationship. And I love that because I adore him. He’s got his flaws, which are coming out in Book Three, He’s got his backstory, which Lizzie thinks she knows. But she has been told the backstory by 9-year-old boy. Actually there’s more to it, which I’m just exploring at the moment. And he’s got more depth. He’s got his flaws, but, yes, I love writing them together. The Bow Street runner’s story Jenny: They’re great. It’s intriguing to me to hear you say that. We’ve only heard there’s a story from her viewpoint because that introduces some very interesting possibilities for the future. Georgina: Which I’m not going to tell you! Jenny: How much independence did women enjoy in the 1750s? Georgina: Well, I mean, again, like a lot of things that it depended on who you were and what your circumstances were. Women were involved in trade and obviously they weren’t in the professions. There were no female clergy or lawyers or doctors. And this is the period when obstetrics began to be taken over by men. So even being a midwife, if you are a female midwife, you were slightly looked down upon because the men were having ideas about how women should give birth at this period. Women aren’t in politics and they’re not in power. Marriage women’s ‘big crunch’ But there are women in trade. The big crunch, I think, for women, comes with with marriage. Certainly, if you have money, if you’re the daughter of a gentleman or a nobleman, the big issue is, if you marry, legally a woman loses her identity. In marriage, she becomes part of the man’s person. They are one legal entity within the man. So you lose your money. You lose possibilities of making money at that point. Women were more independent if they weren’t married. But on the other hand, marriage brought security. That’s probably all I’ll say on the subject. Jenny: Yes. It’s interesting that quite a few historical novelists choose to have their women as widows because that helps to solve the problem of their independence. Men’s fashion in 17th century – Lizzie Hardwicke series from Georgina Clarke Georgina: Yes. Because then you’ve got financial independence. You’ve also got the opportunity to move around a lot more. Women’s invisibility in history Jenny: You wrote an interesting blog entry a while ago, which asked the question, where are all the women in historical fiction? I think it was a few years ago now, and women are starting to get a bit more visibility in historical fiction. Would you agree with that? Georgina: Yes, I think so. I mean, one of the writers that I admire is Lindsey Davis. She wrote the Falco novels and she’s now interestingly writing the Flavia Alba series, about Falco’s adopted daughter, all set in Ancient Rome. I suppose my question always is “where are the women?” I mean, what you alluded to my academic career. . . Flavia Alba mysteries, Lindsey Davis. That’s been a separate career. I work for the Church of England. I’m ordained as a priest in the Church of England. So, my question is always, when I look into Bible stories and when I look into the history of the church, I am always asking “where are the women and what do they doing?”. Because the history of the church is often told by the men, about the men. And I think with historical novels, here is an opportunity for the women to speak and to shine. Hearing women’s voices So let’s hear the voices. Let’s tell the stories from their perspective, because we can use our imagination and we can play and we can give them a voice. That’s why I always ask the question, “Where are the women? What are the women doing?” Jenny:.That actually leads very nicely into the question – moving a little bit away from the individual books and talking a little bit more widely about your career. How has your academic career fed into your fictional writing? Have you found that it’s been helpful to you? Georgina: In terms of research, absolutely. And in terms of being able to handle lots and lots of words also. That’s helpful. I’m not afraid of writing 100,000 words, for example, because my doctoral thesis was 100,000 words with footnotes as well. I’m not afraid of lots of words. I’m not afraid of chopping words or editing. And I’m not afraid of research. The academic’s gift to the novelist I think some people are. Absolutely, if it’s not something that you’re used to, then it can be daunting. Where do I start to look for ideas or where do I start to research on this subject? If you’re not used to operating with asking those questions, then I think it might be more daunting for you than it is for me. And I’m aware that is something that’s a great gift to myself, from the academic me to the novelist. Not to be afraid of libraries, of chasing down references, of asking the questions. Is this true? Just because I’ve seen on Wikipedia doesn’t mean it’s true. Where do I find the real information? Has anything been written on this subject? Where can I read it? Looking at old newspaper documents, you know, that kind of thing. It doesn’t faze me at all. And that’s why I have to stop myself doing the research sometimes and actually get on with writing. Beating writer’s block Jenny: I guess that having been an academic as well, possibly you don’t have the problem of writer’s block. A bit like journalists. Professionally you’re used to sitting down and just writing? Georgina: Yes, that’s true. And also with the church work as well. I have a sermon to preach on Sunday and Sunday will arrive. So there needs to be some thought in words by Sunday. You can turn in a bad effort, but you can’t turn in no effort. You just have to get on with it. And there are a couple of other things that I write for as well. I’ve done some teaching recently. You just have to turn up. Writer’s block? I understand it’s hard when you can’t work out where you’re going in a story. You can’t work out where the plot is going, or how you’re going to get from Point A to Point B. Normally I just go for a walk, or I write something else, and something will turn up. If you have to write, you just get on with it. The secret of Georgina’s success Jenny: If there was one thing that you’d done more than any other in terms of your fiction career, what would be the secret of your success? Georgina: Secret of my success? I love that. I love the idea that it’s ‘success.’ If publishing the two books is a success, then yes, I guess it is. I think it would be having humility, That would be my advice. To learn from people who have things to tell you. So I would say I’m blessed with a fantastic literary agent, Laura Macdougall at United Agents, who has a background in editing. She’s just brilliant. She will look over my work and she’ll ask some very straightforward questions or she’ll say, “I’m not sure this works.” Having trust in somebody like that is really important. Georgina as binge reader And being able to learn from it. You know, you can always learn. I get the impression from some writers that what they have written is just perfect and they can’t possibly change it. And yet a fresh pair of eyes saying “this isn’t working, this character isn’t working. I’m not sure what this is saying. Did you really mean this?” You know, that’s really important. Learning from people who have something to tell you is important. Jenny: That’s fantastic. Turning to Georgina as reader, because this is The Joys of Binge Reading, and the books that you like to read for escape and relaxation. Are you a binge reader, and who do you like to binge read? Brother Cadfael – Ellis Peters’ monk sleuth a favorite. Derek Jacobi in the TV series of the books Georgina: Hey, do I binge read? Well, I’ve mentioned Lindsey Davis and the Falco books. As a teenager, I read all of Ellis Peters’ Brother Cadfael novels. And I will go back to somebody writing in the early part of the 18th century. Antonia Hodgson’s Tom Hawkins novels – like The Devil in the Marshallsea. I really love those. The joy of audio books And Georgette Heyer, she is my comfort read. I do, obviously, still read and I love reading, but I think I probably read a bit less now I’m writing. When I have time to sit, I’m more likely to be sitting writing than sitting reading. But I’ve discovered audio books. And when you’ve got housework to do or a long drive to do or a pile of ironing, then audiobooks have been my friend. I have consumed novels recently by ear, which has been a great, great joy. I’ve been listening rather than binge reading, I suppose. But you’re still getting the whole book. Jenny: If you’ve got a long drive, that’s quite a delight. Georgina: Absolutely. Yes. The novel in the bottom drawer Jenny: Circling back, looking over your writing life. At this stage of your career, if you were doing it all again, would you take exactly the same process or would you make any changes? Georgina: Do you know, I think I probably would make the same mistakes again. Because you learn so much from your mistakes. Like a lot of writers I have the novel in the drawer that is never going to see the light of day. I mentioned it to my agent just recently and she’s ‘oh, send it to me’. And I said, ‘well, I’ll have a look at it first.’ I opened up the file and I looked at it and thought ‘on no , this is so terrible. I couldn’t possibly.’ Jenny: Tell us about it. What was it? Another historical? Georgina: Oh, gosh, it’s a bit too complicated, really. I think that’s possibly part of the problem. It’s a narrative told from three points of view and three periods of history. There’s a late 19th century, mid 20th century and a late 20th century character in it. So it’s a triple timeline. Three women connected by a piece of jewelry. And it’s about family, and it’s about love, and it’s about betrayal. And it’s rubbish! Learning to find your fiction ‘voice’ It sounds great as I’m telling you, so yes, maybe I’ll dust it off when I’m retired, and see if I can make something of it. But I think I learned a lot from it. And I think that’s the important thing. I would probably happily make the same mistake again, because this thing will never see the light of day. I cut my teeth on it and having written a lot of serious history words, writing fiction is very different. I had to learn how to do that. There are different ways of communicating. When you’re teaching, you write differently or you speak differently from when you are lecturing and when you were writing serious academic work. It’s a very different discipline from when you’re writing a piece for a newspaper or an article. And fiction is different again. It’s like learning a new language or a new way of speaking, finding a different voice. So I think I would need to make the same mistakes again. I don’t think I would change anything. Right place, right space I might do it ten years earlier, that would be nice. But actually, I think even that, you know, I’m in the right place, in the right space in my life to be writing now. So I doubt I’d change anything at all. Jenny: How long did you actually spend on it? Georgina: Oh goodness me. A couple of years, I think. Jenny: Somebody, I can’t remember who now, but someone’s got a theory that you really need to write about 50,000 words or more before you really start to find yourself as a writer. So that was probably your version of “trainer wheels.” Georgina: Yes, I think that’s right. You have to work out how fiction sounds. You know, you read all these books through your life and you think, “oh I can write a novel.” You might have a story. But having a story and writing a novel are two different things. You have to learn how to do it. It’s not easy. I didn’t do something that comes easily to anybody. And even if it does, there are always things that you can learn. Choosing the right task for now Jenny: Yes. One of my favorite books from many, many years ago is Lawrence Durrell’s, The Alexandria Quartet. It’s four books told from the viewpoint of four different people. If you’ve got someone of his stature, then your story idea would probably be very easy to work with. And maybe in another decade you’ll have the skills to be able to go back to deal with it in a completely different sort of way. Georgina: Yes. when I opened it up and looked at it, I thought I would probably just set it to one side and keep the same stories, but write it in a different way. But I haven’t got the time to do that now. Jenny: So are you trying to produce one of the Lizzie books a year? Is that your goal? Georgina: Well, I’ve put two out this year, I don’t think I’m going to quite make two next year, but I would like to get the third one out. The good thing about working with Canelo is that they’re able to produce it quite quickly. Once it’s done, it’s done. So I would hope to get a third one out in the spring time of next year. I don’t think I’ll make the fourth quite by the autumn. I think I’d like a little bit more time, it did feel quite a hurried this year, I gather with crime fiction, as I understand it, one a year is about standard. If you’re writing genre fiction. What’s next for Georgina? Jenny: That’s right. And that does bring us beautifully to the penultimate question that I like to address. That is, what is next for Georgina, the writer? Your projects that you’ve got, say, in the works for the next 12 months. Has that third book got a title yet? Georgina: The working title is Viper in the Nest. So, yes, I’ll be positive, I will get that written. And then I think there were issues in Book 3 that tip into Book 4. Of all the books that I’ve got in my mind, Book 3 has the most cliffhanger at the end, as I’m thinking about how it’s going to end. It’s the most of a cliffhanger. So I think people will want Book 4 fairly soon after Book 4. I’m not quite writing them together, but I’m writing Three with Four in mind. And this is one of the things that’s sort of sticking for me a little bit at the moment is I’m writing Three with a view to Four and I’m trying to keep them reasonably standalone, but I think Three and Four will operate together. Jenny: Yes. And that probably will make it easier to write Four when you get to it. Where to find Georgina online Georgina: Oh Yes. Four is the one I want to write. That’s the problem, because there are significant developments in Lizzie’s life in Book 4. And I know what they are and I want to write them but I need to write Three first! Jenny: Do you like interacting with your readers? And if so, where can they find you online or anywhere else? Georgina: I love interacting with readers. This has been a great joy to me. A real joy is finding people who love Lizzie almost as much as I do. In fact, in some cases, I think more than I do. And that’s been lovely. As you can probably tell from the chat that we’re having, I’m a chatty person, so I like to chat. People can either find out details about me and about the books on my website, which is www.georginaclarkeauthor.com But if I’m playing, I play on Twitter, I will play on Twitter happily. Jenny: That’s wonderful. Georgina, Thank you so much for your time. We’re looking at the future books and these developments in Lizzie’s life with a great deal of interest. Georgina: Great. That’s been really good to talk, Jenny. I can’t believe I’m talking to you on the other side of the world. It’s fantastic and it’s amazing. I’ve got a day of writing ahead of me and I’m going off to the library because that’s where I like to work. And it’s pouring with rain. I’m just wondering whether I need to put some better shoes on before I go! Jenny: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much. Georgina: My pleasure. My pleasure. The Chocolate Maker’s Wife – Karen Brooks’ restoration thriller If you enjoyed Georgina Clarke’s 18th century mysteries you might also like Karen Brooks’ 17th century ‘Sin in a bowl’ thriller The Chocolate Maker’s Wife. Thanks To Our Technical Support: The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical help from Dan Cotton at DC Audio Services. Dan is an experienced sound and video engineer who’s ready and available to help you with your next project… Seek him out at [email protected] or Phone + 64 – 21979539. He’s fast, takes pride in getting it right, and lovely to work with. Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20 years of experience on both sides of the camera/microphone as a cameraman/director and also voice artist and television presenter. Abe’s vocal delivery is both light hearted and warm and he is super easy to work with no matter the job. You’ll find him at [email protected]

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