Ian Austin’s under-cover cop Dan Calder is a man with a tendency for trouble – either creating it or falling into it… the protagonist in a crime series that’s been favorably compared to international names like John Grisham and Ian Rankin. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Ian talks about why he doesn’t see Dan as a “hero”, describes how he became a full-time writer after a long and successful career as a police officer, and the high value he places on reader feedback. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: How Ian found purpose in the police An Englishman at home in NZ His troublesome protagonist Grabbing opportunities with both hands Like L&P – ‘World famous in New Zealand‘ Famous guests he’d invite for dinner Where to find Ian Austin: Website: https://www.ianaustin.org/ Facebook: @ianaustinauthor Twitter: @ianaustinauthor What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here’s Ian. . Hello there Ian and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. Ian Austin: Hi, Jenny. Thanks for having me. Ian Austin: Undercover policeman-turned crime author Jenny Wheeler: This time we’re not that far apart. You’re just one side of Auckland and I am on the other side of Auckland, which is rather unusual. So you’re based in New Zealand, you’re a former police officer, turned full time author and I’m thinking that maybe you harbored secret hopes of writing long before you actually got into it. What made you decide to swap chasing crims for writing. Swapping chasing crims for writing Ian Austin: The truth is probably exactly the opposite. I had no qualifications from school whatsoever. I think I was always seen as being the dunce at school, and to be honest, I didn’t do an awful lot to persuade people otherwise. It was only when I joined the police, that I talk about as being my salvation, because it really was. In the police I learned maybe I’m not quite as silly as people thought I was, and I actually had this certain set of skills for writing and formulating plans, making statements, recording interviews – that kind of thing – that was a big part of that. When I came to realize over a period of time that I have these abilities, I started to enjoy the writing side a lot more of what I was doing, designing lesson plans for National Crime Squad and things like that. And then the idea to write a story came and with the career that I had all this research material. ‘Naivety and ignorance’ the key That old adage that people talk about, “everyone’s got a story inside them?” It happens to be true with me and so for a number of years I wanted to write a book and I was lucky enough to be able to do so. Jenny Wheeler: I looked up online to see how many cops had become novelists, and funnily enough, there aren’t as many as there are lawyers. I don’t know if that’s a surprise, but Joseph Wambaugh is one of them. There are a number of others whose names are slightly less well known. Have you networked with any of the other cops turned writers? Ian Austin: To be honest, I haven’t. I think it comes down basically to a lot of naivety and ignorance on my part. Before I started writing, I didn’t do any research into what I should do or talk to other people about it. I just sat down at a laptop one day and started to write and learned as I went along, which is how basically I learned most things. Standing in good company Since I’ve been writing, I’ve met a number of New Zealand policemen that are also writers. Some of them are still in the job and write under Nom de plumes. Others have left the job and are now writing like I do. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, great. That’s wonderful. So you’ve published so far a trilogy of highly praised crime novels. Reviewers compare you to big names like John Grisham and Ian Rankin. That’s top company to be mentioned with. How does that make you feel? Ian Austin: Well, obviously I’m very happy about that. Yes. It took me quite a while, to be honest with you, to actually be able to say to myself and other people that I write good stuff. I’m always a little bit reluctant to try and oversell things before I’m sure. And so, coming to writing, and especially in the way that I did, it’s taken a while to be able to confidently say to people that, yeah, I’m writing good stuff and I’m very grateful and appreciative of the positive comments from other people. The Agency – Book One in the Dan Calder crime series by Ian Austin Dan Calder – Unheroic protagonist Jenny Wheeler: You’ve written four books and the last three have been the Dan Calder series, but your first book – was that more of almost like a trainer novel, do you think? Ian Austin: I think it now, looking back, it probably was. I say that that’s the book that I needed to write to prove to people that I could do it and prove to myself that I can do it. And now I’m writing what I really want to write and what I really enjoy writing. But that first one, which was called The Ideas Man, I think I’m going to revisit it one day. What ended up being a 500 page book will be a much better 400 page book. Jenny Wheeler: I see. Your hero is called Dan Calder and he works as an English undercover police officer who relocates to New Zealand. That’s very much your own story. So you’re always going to have to answer this question of how autobiographical are they? Auckland – great city for a setting And I think you’ve mentioned that probably they becoming less so as you go along, but how, how do you manage that aspect of it? Ian Austin: Yes, absolutely. I had this idea for, for a story which involved an ex British detective. Auckland Is such an amazing, cool place, it seemed like a really good idea to write about somewhere that I knew, and certainly when I started off I wanted to write with confidence. And so the more familiar you are with places, the more confident you can be, because it’s really important to me that I produce the best possible product I can. It did make sense in those early days to write about things that were familiar, but as time goes on, as you say, and the confidence builds, I’m much more able to write more freely now, if I can put it that way. The latest book – Frozen Summer Jenny Wheeler: Yes, yes. So you just recently published the third book in the series. It’s called Frozen Summer. And in that story, Dan returns to the UK to settle a cold case that’s been on his conscience for a long time. Did you have the outline for all three of the Dan Calder books in your head before you started writing Book One? Ian Austin: I did. It started as an idea for a story, for a book, but as I thought more about it, and as I started to write, it sort of exploded, in several different directions. And so what started as one story soon became three. The original idea for the story was, in essence, the middle of the three books, The Second Grave. I’ve always been fascinated by this idea of revenge and what people are prepared to do to exact revenge on other people, and what people are prepared to do for the others that they care about. And then I came across this fantastic saying by Confucius, the Chinese philosopher who said, “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, you should dig two graves.” And that gave me an idea and inspiration and it all started from there. The Second Grave – shaped by Ian Austin’s personal tragedy Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And one of the others, I think it’s the first one has an amazing set up scenario called The Agency focuses on an elusive and top secret organization that organizes assisted suicide, and when they’re a little short of candidates, they start trolling databases for people who are suffering from depression. And it’s such a horrible, intriguing, fascinating idea. I just wondered, did it ever have any basis, in fact. Ian Austin: It does, actually, unfortunately, you see, New Zealand has got this really high rate of depression and suicide. Auckland became a really good location to situate the book because it had this like rich resource, if you like, of potential for the agency to do what they do. And then obviously I was able to write about somewhere familiar around the waterfront area and so on. Near death on Christmas Eve When I was in the police in England, on Christmas Eve, 1990, I was very badly injured. I was nearly beaten to death outside a pub. And as a result of that and that recovery process, I went through a period of depression as well. So I was able to write from personal experience, with regard to that as well. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. So Dan is a refreshingly complex character. You’ve said about him that he’s always “causing trouble or falling headlong into it” and that he’s got a cupboard full of skeletons there. What attracted you to write this kind of hero. Ian Austin: Well, the first thing I should say is I don’t see him as any hero at all. You’re not going to find him fight in six incredible Hulk-like figures on his own, or being able to shoot somebody from half a mile away. He’s not that sort of character at all. He’s a much more human character in my view, with probably more flaws than attributes. His best quality, his best attribute is the way he’s able to think and rationalize. Skeletons in the cupboard While it’s his best, it’s also comes at a price because it obviously affects the way that he thinks and his morals and his ethics and so on. So it’s a bit of a double edged sword for him. and as you said, what happens is whilst he’s able to do these amazing things as a policeman in the way that he thinks and is able to investigate it also means that he ends up with these skeletons in his cupboard. Things that he can’t forget, things that he would want to change if he could, and so on. And the type of character he is, he can’t let those things go. Jenny Wheeler: The books have quite a strong sense of moral compass, don’t they? Dan faces the sort of dilemmas that particularly an undercover police officer has to face. And sometimes there just isn’t a way of making it right or choosing the right thing, whatever you do, there’s going to be a downside to it. Is that a fair way to describe it? Massive cliffhanger – Have your say! Ian Austin: I think some people would think so. Unfortunately there are times when there is just one right and wrong, and there’s no gray areas in between and you have to choose one of one or the two. And not everybody is going to agree with your choice. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. The latest book, Frozen Summer ends with a massive cliffhanger. I was absolutely astounded, actually. I thought it was really courageous, and I won’t give anything away on it because people are reading it. We don’t want to spoil it for them, but you make an appeal to readers to tell you which way to take the story. It’s probably a bit early yet because the book’s only really been out a week or so, hasn’t it? You probably haven’t had much response on that yet, but do you have any preference yourself about how you wanted to go? Are you genuinely going to take a vote on it? Three different beginnings Ian Austin: I will definitely go with what the majority say, and I’ve gone as far as writing three beginnings to the next book, in readiness for that. I really value the feedback. I mean, and I have to say that the comments I’ve had in general from readers, reviewers, critics in the last few years have just been sensational. I think I’m writing realistically, I think I’m writing from what people would describe as a refreshing new angle as well. But what I think is that reading has got to be entertaining. I mean, books are hideously expensive and I owe it to the people that are prepared to put their hands in their pockets, to buy it, to give them the best product I possibly can. And I like the idea of getting a reader and audience invested in the story in the same way that I used to like getting a jury invested in the way that I would give evidence, because I think if you’ve got them on side, you’re far more likely to get a a positive result. Book Four goes international Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. So how far have you got with book number four? Ian Austin: I would say that I’m probably about 60% through at the moment. It was a book that was going to be entirely set at Auckland Airport over a 10 to 12 hour period, but because of the ongoing interest, I’ve been advised by people that I trust to internationalize him more. Auckland International Airport – first part of Dan Calder Book four takes place here before shifting to US So now the second half of the book, which does begin at the airport, moves to America. I’m really interested in how that’s going at the moment. I’m having a really good time doing that research, do you mean? Jenny Wheeler: And so not know quite what you’re going to do with the ending to Book Three and that will affect quite a lot of the outcomes. Has that made it more difficult to write it as far as you’ve gone now? Going with the flow Ian Austin: I’m basically so naive about this whole writing lark. No one’s ever told me how difficult it’s supposed to be, and so I just sit in front of the laptop and start writing, and I don’t seem to have any boundaries. I find writing easy. I know that’s probably not a really good thing to say, but I have the best time. I don’t have a set plan of how I write or when I’m going to write, there’ve been lots of times where, I’ll go and sit at the laptop after breakfast and then I’ve got to be dragged off it because it’s got dark and I’ve haven’t moved since the morning. Jenny Wheeler: Gosh, that is amazing. I think a lot of people would be very envious of that. On getting in there and just doing it Ian Austin: Like I say, if no one ever tells you how hard it is to do something and you get on and do it, life becomes a lot less complicated. And I feel sure that if people spent less time talking about how hard something was and just got on and did it, much more would get achieved. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I noticed in the foreword of one of your books, you encouraged people to, if they’ve got a big project, you use the example of running a marathon, get in there and do it, and you have been a marathoner as well, haven’t you? Perhaps you’ve just got that ability to take on big projects. Ian Austin: Thank you very much. I think, if you have enough desire to do anything, there’s not a lot in this life that you can’t achieve. And certainly as far as the police, when I used to say this to people that I trained all the time, if you’re bored in your role in the police, then you are doing something wrong. Being a cop ‘best job in world’ Because it is the best job in the whole world. I miss doing the job every single day. I hopefully bring that sort of attitude to everything else as well. If you know, if you’re bored or if you’re not happy, do something about it. Jenny Wheeler: So how did you make that transition? I mean, I mentioned Joseph Wambaugh . . . He went to full time writing when he found that his status as an author was negatively affecting his job, how did you make that transition out of the police if you still were enjoying the job? Ian Austin: I was policeman in the UK for 20 years. I was one of the first lot of Pommie cops that got recruited to New Zealand in 2002 – 2003. I’d always wanted to come to New Zealand. I have family here, and I always thought I’d end up retiring here, after I did my 30 year service in the police in the UK. But divorce happened, a separation happened, and, at that point in time I made the decision that if I don’t do it now, then I might not get that chance in the future. Taking opportunities in both hands So yes, grab the opportunity with both hands is my philosophy. I came to New Zealand to join the police. And I’ve never regretted coming here. It’s the only place I’ve actually ever been where I do feel at home, much more so than the UK, to be honest. I did a number of years in the NZ police before I got just a little bit frustrated with the organization. I think in some areas it’s not as professional as I would like it to be. And in the time that I would have had left in the police here, there wasn’t enough time for me to affect it, to change things. And I’d met my partner, Sally over here, by that time. And she encouraged me and said, look, you came here for the quality of life. If you’re not enjoying it, do something about it. She offered to give me a year off to write a book, which I’d wanted to do at that time for a number of years. And that’s how I came to write the first book. Within two weeks of starting it, I just thought, well, this is me. This is what I want to do, and so there’s been no looking back since then. One thing that’s secret of success Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Turning to your wider career is there one thing you’ve done perhaps more than any other in your writing career that’s been the secret of your success? Ian Austin: I can’t think of a single thing, as I say, the naivety and ignorance can take you a long way. If had to, if I had to think of one thing, it’s that I have this very analytical brain as well, in the same way that Dan Calder it does, I suppose. In that way, the books are slightly, auto-biographical. It’s that attention to detail, and the manner in which I write is very statement- like-taking it in a way. It’s very descriptive. I like to use the word like because it’s very easy to invest readers in a story if you can put a picture in their mind of how, of what something looks like or how something sounds. Capturing reader interest And the feedback I get, universally is that they readers like that type of descriptive writing. I suppose that if anything is, it’s the one thing that my police career gave me that enables me to write how I write today. Jenny Wheeler: You probably were trained to be very observant as a police officer as well, I would imagine. Ian Austin: Absolutely. I mean, I did a number of years as a covert surveillance operative – an undercover operative – and then having to teach other people to become surveillance operatives as well. You have to be able to notice things as opposed to see them. You see things every day. You have to notice them in order to remember and recount the details later. Look who’s coming to dinner Jenny Wheeler: I’m thinking that over all these years of experience that you must have met some very interesting people. If you were going to put together a dinner party of perhaps the most fascinating people in your ambit from both the past and currently, who would you choose? Who would you like to invite to dinner? Ian Austin: Oh, wow. I tell you what, Jenny, can I have two dinner parties? Can I give you two lists? Okay. Well, the first one would include my hero, Sherlock Holmes, not the actual Conan Doyle writer, but the character himself of Holmes. I think he and I’ve got a lot in common, both good and bad. I’d also invite Margaret Thatcher, the ex- Prime Minister of, of the UK. She came to power at the time I joined the police and was very obviously influential in how the police grew over the next period of years as I was becoming an officer and doing all these different things. I think I’d invite Queen Elizabeth the First. I see her as one of the best, if best is a proper term for a Monarch. Sherlock Holmes one invited guest for Ian’s dinner party A surprise American President – One of the best Monarchs there has been in what she was able to achieve for the country. I’ve been following what’s happening in the States with Trump and the impeachment and so on. And I’ve recently learned a little bit about another of their Presidents, James Madison, who wrote most of the American constitution. He seems to be a really interesting character, so I’d invite him as well. That would be that would be the first of my two dinner parties. That’s the Friday night, and on the Saturday, if I could have them, my next one, I’d actually invite the previous six generations of my grandparents, I think so. My dad, my granddad, my great granddad, et cetera, et cetera. Keeping it all in the family I’d like the idea of sitting down with them and just talking about family and how they perceive the world and how they thought their descendants would turn out and how things are today and what sorts of jobs were they doing. My father was in the Merchant Navy for a number of years and he moved around a lot because his father was in the Royal Air Force. And so they traveled the world. And going back before that, we’ve got grandparents that came from Russia who were Russian Jews that ended up living in South Africa. And yes, it’s quite a varied ancestry. So I think it will be an interesting evening, Jenny Wheeler: Very international by the sound of it. Yes. I like the idea of that – it sounds great. I suppose it wouldn’t be feasible to try and combine the two, so I can understand that. Ian as reader – the favorites Yeah, look, turning into Ian as reader. The show is called The Joys of Binge Reading and obviously your books have really designed, if people discover the first one, they’re very likely to want to go on and read the rest of the series. Who do you like to binge read and can you give you listeners any recommendations? Ian Austin: Yes. I look at myself as being really fortunate now because just talking about school days again and not doing an awful lot of school work, I didn’t do an awful lot of reading, so I’ve got the pleasure of catching up now. I like Edward Rutherfurd. I’ve read a number of his books, over and over set in New York, London, Paris, and Sarum which is very close to where I was born and brought up in the South of England. I like his books a lot. Edward Rutherfurd a favorite author – and Sarum close to home If I want to laugh, I’ll probably read someone like Tom Sharpe. who wrote in South Africa, then in the UK as well. I like something a little bit different and I found a book a couple of years ago, which I think is probably, if I have to be pushed, would say is my favorite book. And that’s called Alone in Berlin by a guy called Hans Fallada, who wrote just after the Second World War. And it’s a book set during the war in Germany. And I would recommend anybody to read that. I mean, it’s an amazing story with a very, very individual style of writing. As far as police and police procedural stuff, I do like Susan Hill. She’s a British writer who, who’s got a policeman called Simon Serrailler who she writes about. I enjoy her writing a lot. Jenny Wheeler: Do you read a lot of police procedurals? Susan Hill – top notch crime writer. Ian Austin: I don’t read an awful lot full stop. And because I’m very conscious of my failings as a reader, going back, I’m trying to catch up with all the classics. I like to read a little bit of Dickens. I like to read a little bit, Jane Austen. Even the Brontes and things like that. I feel like I’ve missed out, and so I’m playing catch up at the moment and every now and then I’ll read Dan Brown or something like that as well. So, yes. There’s an awful lot on my “to read” list. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. We’re starting to come to the end of our time together. So circling around and looking back across your life as it as it is today, at this stage in your career, if you were doing it all again, would you change anything? And if so, what would you change? One important regret Ian Austin: I think it’s a bit awkward to say that you change something because then it would be entirely different and I’m really happy with this, with what I’m writing and the way that I’m writing now. One thing I do regret. My mum passed away a number of years ago. I would really have loved to have written something while she was still alive that she could have read. Because I know that mom and dad worried about me when I was a kid, where I’d end up being and so on. And the fact that I had the police career that I did, and I’m now having the writing career, I think that would have put their minds to rest a little bit more. Had they known that sooner? Yes. Jenny Wheeler: I understand. Looking ahead to the next 12 months or so, what have you got in terms of projects and the work, say for the next 12 months. Close to his heart Ian Austin: Well, as you said earlier, Frozen Summer is literally just been out for 10 days or so. So hopefully we’ll have, we’ll enjoy the interest that comes from that. I’ve got a number of other interviews and appearances and projects lined up with regard to Frozen Summer and I’ve really enjoyed talking about these books. They’re very close to my heart in the way that they’ve come about. A number of things that have happened personally in the last few years have made them all the more important and special. The middle book, The Second Grave, was going through its editing process at the time that my son died very suddenly, and that changed things massively. It changed the whole editing process, the relationships between some of the characters and certainly the direction of the third book as well. I’m immensely proud of how they’ve turned out and what they mean to the people that are close to me as well. A dark twist to the ordinary But once we’ve done all that. As I mentioned earlier the new one that I’m writing at the moment, starts at Auckland and then moves to America. I’m really looking forward to continuing the research and the writing of that one. It’s got a working title of Bonded. If you go to the dictionary for the definition of bond, you’ll see that there’s about a dozen different things. And I won’t give too much away about the idea of that multifaceted idea. It appeals to me and I’ve found what I think people would think of as a banal, boring subject and given it a rather dark twist, to make it the central theme of that book. So I’m really enjoying that and obviously because although it’s a Calder book, it takes place sometime after Frozen Summer and, and therefore the skeletons in his cupboards, are not the same. It’s a completely different book in a different style. So many ideas, so little time… Jenny Wheeler: And are you thinking that there are going to be more Calder books after this Book Four one?? Slightly longer term or have you got any ambitions to do something completely different? Is there anything like that on the horizon in the future? Ian Austin: Well, I’ve probably got, I don’t know, 20 books, 20 stories started on the laptop. You start writing something, thinking it will be part of this story, and then you realize that actually it probably won’t, but it’s actually a good idea for something else. And so that then gets filed away as a potential project. And I have started at least a dozen other stories already, most of them featuring Calder. And so, yes, I think he’s got a lot more to offer before I’m done with him, but I do also have ideas for other stories as well. Jenny Wheeler: Gosh, it sounds like there’d be no problem with inspiration for you. Ian Austin: That’s right. Writer’s block doesn’t occur for me. Where to find Ian online Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. You’ve mentioned about how you love to have reader feedback. How is the best way to get that, or how do you go about getting that? Are you active online or are there other ways that you interact with your readers? Ian Austin: I’ve got my official website, which is ianaustin.org there’s a Facebook page, which is @IanAustinauthor. And there’s also an Instagram page, which is @IanAustinauthor. Fantastic. And you get, you get people commenting through those and you’d respond to them through those? Yes. I get messages all the time and it’s very flattering. Also to be stopped occasionally. You know this we’ve got the L & P product in New Zealand, haven’t we? (Lemon and Paeroa ) The lemonade drink. Someone said to me the other day that I’m the L & P of the literary world. I’m world famous in New Zealand. A favorite local fizz – Lemon & Paeroa.... (now owned by Coca Cola) World famous in New Zealand Jenny Wheeler: I was going to ask you about distribution actually. So you are mainly New Zealand audience at the moment, are you? Y Ian Austin: Yes I’ve got a great New Zealand distributor. One of the things that I learned very early on was, areas that I’m not expert in, surround myself with the best possible people, which I did so far as editing and publicity and distribution goes. So, although I’m self-published, we’re in every good bookshop. So it’s easy to find the books. If your local shop doesn’t have it, just ask and they’ll be able to source it for you. We’ve also sold books in the UK and Australia, America. I was told the other day that The Agency is apparently in every library in California, which is quite cool. In every library in California Jenny Wheeler: And are you on Amazon as well? Ian Austin: No, I have this this grand plan, which included publishing all three books as eBooks when the third one came out. But because of what’s happening with potential publishing deals at the moment, we’ve put the idea on hold for a while. Jenny Wheeler: Okay. Yup. That’s great. We have pretty much run out of time now, but it’s been wonderful talking and I will watch with interest what the feedback is on this massive cliffhanger and how it turns out. Ian Austin: My pleasure. Hey, thanks so much for having me, Jenny. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Bye for now. If you enjoyed listening to Ian you might also enjoy Sarah Barrie’s Australian Rural mysteries or Jo Spain’s best-selling Irish thrillers. Sarah Barrie’s Australian rural mysteries Jo Spain’s Best Selling Irish thrillers Thanks To Our Technical Support: The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical help from Dan Cotton at DC Audio Services. Dan is an experienced sound and video engineer who’s ready and available to help you with your next project… Seek him out at [email protected] or Phone + 64 – 21979539. He’s fast, takes pride in getting it right, and lovely to work with. Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20 years of experience on both sides of the camera/microphone as a cameraman/director and also voice artist and television presenter. Abe’s vocal delivery is both light hearted and warm and he is super easy to work with no matter the job. You’ll find him at [email protected]

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