Rennie Airth’s gentleman detective John Madden investigates serial killer cases long before the phrase ‘serial killer’ was ever coined, in a police procedural series that paints a riveting picture of a post war Britain in turmoil. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Rennie talks about having lunch with his hero Graham Greene and why he learnt more from writing a bad book than a good one. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: How First World War family history influenced his work Why 1914 – 18 was the hinge to the modern era How he came to go to a baseball game with Fidel Castro And to lunch with his hero Graham Greene The writers he admires most What he’d do differently second time around Where to find Rennie Airth: Website: http://www.rennieairth.net/ What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word, but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: And now, here’s Rennie. . Hello there Rennie and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. Rennie: It’s very nice to be talking with you Jenny. Jenny: Beginning at the beginning – was there a “Once Upon A Time” moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction? And if there was a catalyst, what was it? Rennie Airth – Mystery author Rennie: That’s an interesting question. Well I actually always wanted to write fiction. When I was at school, I always thought of myself as one day being a writer, but I hadn’t got anything to write about. So I went into journalism. I had actually, a very interesting first career. I worked in various parts of the world, but it was when I got to Vietnam – I was working there for Reuters, and I’d done a stint there – it was a matter of either staying with Reuters, and going to some other possibly interesting place or looking for a job in a newspaper. Or, doing what I actually wanted to do now for some years; write fiction. So I quit Reuters and went to Crete where I had some sort of connection, I thought I’d write a book there and see how it went. So that’s how it started. The book I wrote there was no good; it was never actually published. I actually learnt a lot from writing a bad book I think, even more so than writing one that was successful. But that’s what actually got me into writing. Jenny: Was it anything to do with your post in Vietnam that made you think, I want to do this now? Rennie: Not at all. You know, I’d had some very interesting stuff to cover. I’d been in Cuba and met Castro and all those sorts of things. Vietnam was a big story. I’d just wondered if I hadn’t actually had that time, and done the best kinds of stories there were, did I want to hang on or was this a moment to break out and write fiction? But it wasn’t anything that happened to me in Vietnam, no. Jenny: And why choose historical crime thrillers – or as one critic has described them – ‘meticulously detailed procedural mysteries’ – as your genre? Are you comfortable being described as a “genre” writer in fact? Rennie: No, I don’t mind being called a genre writer. I didn’t actually sit down with the idea of saying “I’m going to be a genre writer”. I got very interested in the First World War and read a lot about it. I just got the idea – it actually came as a two pronged idea. One: to actually write a story set around that time, involving a man who’d been in a war and come out of it. The other- you know serial killers have been very popular in fiction- I thought, how about doing a story about a serial killer before that term was actually coined? People didn’t really understand it. So Madden and his superior Chief Inspector have to figure out what is going on. I thought it was a nice challenge to take on. River of Darkness – Rennie Airth Jenny: On your website you mention that a scrapbook you saw about your uncle, a soldier killed in World War I, inspired River of Darkness . . . Can you tell us how that came about? Rennie: Yes I can actually; he was my father’s elder brother. They were both in the war. My uncle who had my name – the same name as I have, Rennie, he was killed in the war and my father was captured. The thing is a telegram was sent to their parents. This all happened in the same week, so my grandparents had two telegrams – one of them saying their elder son was dead, and the other saying their younger son was missing. Can you imagine what they must have felt then? This was common in England; it wasn’t just them. Anyway, they put together a scrapbook which was very touching; it was old photographs of my uncle. He liked amateur dramatics, and he was something of a joker; a very good cricketer at school apparently. There were just these very touching family pictures. There was a letter from his commanding officer saying “we like Rennie so much, he was such a good chap”. He actually spent two years in the trenches and survived, and came out with his nerves in bad shape. But there was such pressure then to sort of do your bit, that he volunteered to be an RAF Observer. His plane was shot down, and he was killed. That’s how he died. And all these little notes and bits about him, and the tests he had to take as an observer and all this; it was rather like having a school report. I was just very moved, it sort of played into the idea of writing a book about that time. The other thing was, my father never spoke about the war very much. And this I discovered, by reading about the war, that it’s actually quite common. When troops came back from the Second World War, they had lots of stories about the war. What happened to them, where they’d been. This wasn’t so much the case in First World War, which was so awful. Trapped in the trenches for years, and the death toll was so awful that men coming back didn’t want to talk about very much. But even more to the point; people back in England didn’t want to hear about it. So I think this was part of the problem why my father never talked about it. Trench warfare was hell. World War I. Jenny: For those not familiar with your protagonist, Detective John Madden, in Book One he is clearly suffering from stress that’s variously referred to as Shell Shock or Battle Fatigue or PTSD . . . I did wonder if your experiences as a Reuters correspondent in Vietnam made you more sensitive to what was then called Post Vietnam Syndrome and if that played a part in shaping Madden’s character? Rennie: Yes, I see you mean but no I don’t think so. That thing in Vietnam, the PTSD, that only came up some time later. I was only there for ’65 and ’66. All the American forces arriving were very fresh, and very new. I think the elite divisions arrived first, the marines and then the airborne. That aspect of the war didn’t arise, it came later. So the answer is no, it didn’t have an effect on me. I was referring to books I’d read about the effects on men who’d come back from WWI. Even at the time my book is set – 1923- there were still thousands of men being treated in hospital for the after effects of what was called Shell Shock. Madden was one of those cases, but he hadn’t needed to go to hospital. He was very strong, strong willed. He was in bad shape till he met Helen, who was as you know, was instrumental in helping him and curing him. Jenny: And then you jumped forward 10 years for the next book, The Blood Dimmed Tide, set between the Wars, as Fascism is on the rise . . You said you wanted to avoid a series where John Madden simply gets the next case to solve . . so by the time Book Two occurs he’s out of the police force, remarried, and a gentleman farmer. . . That’s an iconoclastic approach to the usual trope for a crime series. . The Blood Dimmed Tide – Rennie Airth Rennie: Yes it was, I wanted to do something different. I think the series and detective stories, some of them are very good of course. But they tend to live rather in a bubble – it’s another case for Inspector Madden. They sort of go through familiar routines. I wanted to place these books in a different historical context each time, and of course tying in the second book with the rise of fascism, and Madden’s hatred of war coming to his mind again. He thinks about these things. And then during the war, when he had to go into the Home Guard for a time, he hated putting on uniform. I also like the idea of looking at the English class system, and English society, how people behaved. And of course it changes during the books as they move on. Jenny: Just as an aside- have you spent much time yourself in England? Rennie: Yes I have spent quite a lot of time. I went there from South Africa, and worked in London for two or three years before I went abroad for Reuters. Then when I came back, I spent time in England. So yes, I know England quite well. That period that I write about was the period covered by books I read as a boy at school, and later. So in someways, it was very familiar to me. Jenny: Each of the now five Madden books reflects a quite different social context, and can be read as a stand alone work. I get the feeling you very much enjoy having that bigger canvas to play with. . .Is that the journalist /investigator at work? Rennie: Possibly; I hadn’t thought about it in those terms. But I was always interested in society and writing about England, especially in those years – you can’t get away from the class system. So it’s always the back drop to my books. The thing is, in those books the important thing is to think about how people talked to each other at that time; how they spoke to one another, which is very different from now. As you would have noticed, my books are entirely free of four letter words, because people didn’t use them very much then and they certainly never used them in front of women! Jenny: That’s right, absolutely. And if we’re talking about the slightly risque, there’s virtually no sex in them either that I can think of, or very little. Rennie: There’s a little in the first book, because Madden and Helen do have a passion in physical attraction for each other. There are two sex scenes in it. Other than that, I don’t have any other sex scenes – I didn’t want to put them in. I think they’re by and large unnecessary these days. If people want sex, they can go online and look at porn. You don’t have to read about it in books particularly, I don’t think. Jenny: What began as a possible trilogy now stands at five books with the publication last year of The Death of Kings set in Post War Britain. How has Madden evolved over the series? The Reckoning – Rennie Airth Rennie: It’s very interesting. I started out with the idea of a single book, and when I finished it I realized I had much more to say about Madden and Helen – I didn’t want to leave it there. So I put to my publishers the idea of a trilogy, which they were quite happy with. After I’d written three, I got sort of a couple of messages from them – they’d like more if possible. I got well into the whole family bit of the Maddens and the people around them. So I enjoyed writing more, you know. I don’t know how much longer I’ll go on to be honest, but I have got another one coming up to finish. It’s in the hands of my publishers now. Jenny: So is that number six? Rennie: That will be number six, correct. Jenny: Robert McKee the script writing guru has said about historical stories that “the controlling idea of the story should be applicable to contemporary life.” Would you agree – and what do you think the appeal is in the current popularity for Second World War historicals? Rennie: As you probably know, WWI has been going through a period – it’s slightly faded away now- but it became very interesting to people in England, particularly in Britain but also in America. I have a lot of readers in America, and they in some ways are enjoying my books even more. They like reading about that time in England, and the people there. I don’t entirely agree with Robert McKee. The situations in your book have to be recognizable to people, to understand what problems people faced then. How they confronted them, and how they relate to their own lives. I think that’s important. But they don’t necessarily have to have a controlling idea that’s reflected. I don’t know – it’s a form of words. Perhaps I sort of partly agree with him. I really try to set them in the context of their own lives, and show that dealing with their lives and problems that are not that different from problems today. You see, I think WWI was a great hinge in history. There was a before and after. We live in the after, still. Jenny: Please expand on that thought a little more – how do you see that as being watershed? Rennie: You know, there’s a scene in the second book which writers particularly like. Whether readers think the same about them, I don’t know! It’s when Sinclair, Madden’s old friend and former superior is talking to the man of the foreign office, Philip Vane, and he explains how things have changed since the war. He says there’s no “acting like gentleman anymore”. Everything has changed, and I think the Nazis were a symptom of that. Up to the WWI, there was a kind of “gentleman’s way” of fighting wars. I once read stories about how when pilots were shot down, they were given honorable funerals by the other side. All that has gone away; it’s become a much more savage and brutal world. So that’s the hinge I’m thinking of – I think the war was so terrible that it actually changed something in human nature. I haven’t actually said that in many of my books, but that’s how I feel. Dachau: ‘A much more savage and brutal world’ Jenny: It’s funny that you’re referring to Vane, because when I was reading that book- it’s one of those funny things where you read and try to anticipate what might be coming – I became quite convinced that Vane was the serial killer and that he was somehow using his role as a way of hiding away. I carried on with this thought for quite a few chapters, and was quite reluctant to admit it wasn’t going to be him.. I think maybe it’s even quite an interesting device – a red herring- that you leave thoughts open for the reader that that might be how it’s going to go, and then it goes in quite a different direction. Rennie: That’s it. It’s actually quite a standard device that we mystery writers use. You sort of like to set up other possible candidates, and he was an obvious one. He seemed like the sort of man to have a twisted, sexual life. But in fact, he was actually straight. That’s quite fun to do actually, you sort of pull the rug from under the readers. Jenny: So how do you see Madden having evolved over the series? What age has he got to in book 6? Rennie: I’ve always been careful about the age; let me work it out. He’s in his early sixties. He’s 61 or 62 now. He’s still very fit, I’ve always kept him very fit. He’s one of those people who luckily doesn’t get overweight or anything; he’s had a vigorous life outdoors, and is always in good shape. The Chief Inspector is getting quite old – he in this latest book is really feeling his years. I use all that about how you feel, and of course I like having the younger people in the books too. I like the daughter- I use her quite a lot, Lucy, and she’s probably like her mother was as a young woman, to stay very wilful and strong willed and wanting to do things her way. I can play it well against Madden, who adores her. He’s putty in her fingers one way or another. Jenny: I can tell just by how you’re talking about them that you really enjoy these characters! Rennie: Yes I’ve enjoyed very much writing about them. While your writing, these people start filling your life as you’re doing the book. They become almost like real people. They’re in a way your company. You wonder what they’re going to do next – you’re sort of not always sure. Turning from specific books to wider look at your career – Jenny: What is the one thing you’ve done more than any other that has been the secret to your success? Rennie: You know, I really don’t know how to answer that. As you know, my books have a slightly old fashioned tone to them and that’s quite deliberate. I wanted them to sound like the kind of books that might be from that period, rather than to give them a kind of modern sound. So I can’t think of any single reason. I think people like reading about periods of history that are quite recent – you know, quite recent and that you can relate to. Mind you, they also like reading about earlier things. I love Hilary Mantel’s books about the Tudors. Jenny: Mind you, in the last few days- I don’t know if you know an author Lindsey Davis- but she has done a series of mystery novels set in Ancient Rome. She’s got this hero Falco. Rennie: Yes I do! I’ve actually met her once or twice. I read two or three of the earlier books, and really liked them. I haven’t read anymore of them – not because I went off them, but there are so many books to read, you can only read so many. But I think she’s very good. Jenny: Yes, that’s right. I must say I enjoy being able to jump back to a period like that as well, it’s really fun. Rennie: They have to be done very well, as she does, to actually make them work. Some of the ones pushing detectives back in the old days don’t work very well for me, but those do. Those work very well. Jenny: Some of your postings with Reuters gave you opportunities for insights into some remarkable times – Washington under the Kennedy Administration, Havana and Saigon at the start of the Vietnam War. Did you appreciate the uniqueness of your position at the time – and have you ever been tempted to write fiction based in any of them? Graham Greene – lunch with his hero. Rennie: No I haven’t actually. One of the reasons is if I did it, I’d do it in a Graham Greene kind of way. I must say, when I was a young man he was my actual writer hero. I wouldn’t do that; I think you have to know another culture really well to set a book in it. I wouldn’t set a book in America, but I know America quite well. But I wouldn’t do that, because I think I’d get so many things wrong. What I have done a couple of times, and what I’m doing in a book I’m working on now which isn’t a Madden book, is bringing in a young American to Britain and seeing the way she reacts to being in a country which is both familiar and not entirely familiar. I think you can do it that way, if you see what I mean. But I’d be very hesitant about actually setting any books- even though Greene did brilliantly, he always did them in a certain way with the wonderful characters he had who were always fighting with God. Jenny: And nothing based in South Africa? Rennie: No I wouldn’t. I left a long time ago, and I don’t know the country well anymore. I just decided, I’ve always wanted to escape from South Africa. There was a kind of dead hand in life there. I lived there during the apartheid times, and I felt that this was not where real life was going on. Of course it wasn’t. I just wanted to get away, and I got away. I have to see my sister and members of my family quite regularly there, but no, I couldn’t write a book set in South Africa now. I’m far too much out of touch to do that. Jenny: Yes, that’s probably one country that has changed hugely in the last forty years- utterly unrecognizable. Rennie: It is unrecognizable, but I like the way it’s unrecognizable. I don’t like Johannesburg at all, but it’s buzzing with sort of energy, and it’s lovely to see the mixing of races. That’s one of the things I like about London now- when I first went there, it was very much a lily white town. There were blacks around, but you didn’t see them very much. Now, if you travel in the tubes in London and anywhere; what a mix of ethnicities. I love it actually. I think it’s terrific. Jenny: It’s sometimes said writers tend to write the same story in different guises – a core story. Do you agree with that idea and if so what would you say that story is for you? Rennie: Yes, I know that. It’s often said writers write the same story, and there’s some truth in it. But I can’t think of a core story. If you’re writing mysteries, then you obviously have in mind a mystery – you set up a situation where one or more people are murdered and you want to find out who did it, that sort of thing. But that’s just the framework of the book. I don’t have in mind that sort of core story I don’t think. I can’t really give you an answer, I don’t think I have that idea really. Jenny: Maybe something like that justice somehow is always found in one way or another. Rennie: I’m not so sure about that. I think there’s the law, and then there’s justice. The law doesn’t always reflect justice. I think justice is something else. Madden has a horror of violence, and the interesting thing about him as a character is that as the Chief Inspector points out in the last book I’ve written – he’s talking to Madden’s daughter and saying your father was a tremendously good detective, but he hated everything to do with violent death, so for him there was always a tug in different directions. That to my mind, makes him interesting. Rennie as Reader Jenny: The series is called “The Joys of Binge Reading” prompted by the preference in our culture for the instant and addictive – Netflix in reading. Turning to your taste in fiction, have you ever been a “binge reader” – and if so who were your “go to” authors. Who do you like to read today? Rennie: Yes, I wouldn’t say it was binge reading but I have absolutely had favorite authors in the past. As a child, my absolute hero was Kipling and The Jungle books were my bible. I thought they were wonderful. He also happened to be a terrific writer, so that was a good start. As I got older and sort of grew up, and finished school and everything I became a very big fan of Evelyn Waugh’s books. I loved them. I read them all several times. I think he’s a superb writer, even if he is a peculiar man! Evelyn Waugh: Superb writer, peculiar man Then I moved on to Graham Greene. I’d say Graham Greene is probably the writer I admired the most for the longest period. I thought as a storyteller, he has a way of describing place and character in the most economical way. He’s a complete master. I don’t know if you’ve read him at all Jenny, but if you read him again now you’ll be amazed at what a great writer he was. When I first went and wrote my first book in Crete, I thought it was very sub Graham Greene, I had to get it out of my system. I managed to do that with this book, I’ve never been tempted into that again. I thought he was a wonderful writer in his way, and that’s nothing to do with his views about religion, which were less interesting to me. As a craftsman, I thought he was terrific. I managed to meet him once and have lunch with him, and we talked about Havana, because of course Our Man in Havana is a lovely book. Hilary Mantel – work to be admired We talked a little bit about Havana, and I’ve been there. But I couldn’t really get anything out of him. Anyway, that’s my Graham Greene story for you. As I say, I like Hilary Mantel very much and I was a huge fan of Penelope Fitzgerald – I thought she was the best writer in England when she was alive. Alas, she’s no longer with us. As I grow older, I read less in modern fiction. I read a lot of biography and history, and I re-read a lot of old books and classics I’ve liked in the past. It’s quite a feature of growing older that you do this. Anyway, that’s my reading. Jenny: Great. Yes, I read Graham Greene so long ago that I have really almost forgotten- it would be nice to go back to him. Do just tell us about the circumstances of that lunch; how did it come about? Rennie: I have a cousin who is an actress married to an agent, and the agent had got the rights for one of Greene’s last books which was The Honorary Consul – it wasn’t one of his best, coincidentally. He got the movie rights through a director who knew Greene well. Needless to say, I’d made some money out of a book I wrote years ago called Snatch. So he asked me if I could lend him some money to get hold of the script, which I did unwisely. Never lend anyone any money for buying movies; you’ll never get it back! He said, “what can I do in return?” And I said, “have lunch with Greene”. So me and the director whose name was Peter someone, we had lunch in Soho and there was Graham Greene, very tall, rather elegantly dressed and unusually dressed, somewhat silent. You couldn’t get much out of him, but anyway I had lunch with my hero so there it is. Jenny:That’s wonderful. Circling around from beginning to end Jenny: At this stage in your career, if you were starting out all over again, what if anything would you change? Rennie: Not much I think. I wouldn’t have started writing fiction earlier than I did, because I didn’t have anything to write about. I think you have to learn a bit about life and experience if you’re thinking of writing about fiction, and I think being a journalist does actually get you around the world. I’ve met some very interesting, odd and unusual people. I could tell you about how I was taken to a baseball game by Castro, but I won’t bore you with that. To the baseball with Fidel Castro What you want to be if you’re a writer I think, is you have to be curious. Always curious. You’ve got to be a good listener, and of course a good observer. But all those things also have to be with being a journalist. But in fact writing journalism and writing fiction are two very different things. I had to as it were, unlearn the craft of being a journalist and get into the business of writing fiction which is very different. Jenny: How would you in a nutshell explain the difference in your experience? What was the difference that you had to take in approach between your journalism and your fiction? Rennie: I was a very particular kind of journalist, in the sense that I was a wire service journalist working for Reuters. Reuters wanted news reported quickly and clearly so everyone could understand it, and stories were crafted in a certain way. The opening paragraph had to seize the readers’ attention, and then you went through the story as it went and summed up in the end, it was rather like learning to make a table. Once you get into the business of writing fiction, you’re actually aiming for something quite different. You’re looking for mood, character, and the story of course, before blending them all together. Jenny: What is next for Rennie the writer? I mentioned you were working on something other than Madden under development? Rennie: I wanted a break from Madden, and this book which is in the hands of my publishers, it called Decent Inn of Death from the GK Chesterton poem The Rolling English Road – it starts ‘Before the Roman came to Rye’ I know it well – I can recite it to you: My friends, we will not go again or ape an ancient rage, Or stretch the folly of our youth to be the shame of age, But walk with clearer eyes and ears this path that wandereth, And see undrugged in evening light the decent inn of death And so forth… This one is a contemporary; I wanted to do a contemporary. I was slightly prompted by the idea that the world is so horrible at the moment, at least the people who are running it, that I ought to try and write a book that was of our time. I had an idea in my mind for sometime, and put it aside because I couldn’t find the thing that Hitchcock called the MacGuffin – you know the thing that set the story going. And then I got the idea, which I won’t tell you, because as the book is going you actually don’t know what it is until you’re quite well into the book. I won’t tell you – perhaps you’ll read it one one day and you’ll find out! Jenny: I think you’re very brave to write contemporary – I’ve just been doing some historical mystery fiction, but I’m a bit scared about trying to do contemporary because even at my stage, I’m not so confident about how to write much younger people with the way that they use social media and all the rest. It’s a world that’s quite hard to reach back into, isn’t it? Rennie: You don’t have to tell me! I’ve forgotten about this, but one of the reasons I wrote back in time was I realized the technological change and behavior among people prompted by social media is so great now that by the time you write it, it’s out of date. So I stayed away from it completely, because I’m older and part of the world is a complete mystery to me. But I thought of a way of doing this book – of actually avoiding that, I mean people have smart phones and all the rest of it, but actually staying away from social media and everything by devising a different plot. But I take your point entirely. If it doesn’t work out this book, I shall probably sit down and write another Madden. Jenny: That’s great. It’s wonderful that you’re going to be writing as long as you possibly can. It’s something you just love to do. Rennie: Well it’s what you do, isn’t it – you get up in the morning, and you have another paragraph to write, another page to write. You’re probably the same. If I’m no longer doing it, what’s the point of getting up anymore? Jenny: I imagine you’re also someone who doesn’t believe in writer’s block. Rennie: I do. I believe it can happen, actually. I had quite a long block actually between writing my first book and then I had a second book, and then another block. People have asked me why, and I don’t have an answer. Yes I do believe it, but I don’t exactly know what it is. You just don’t know what you’re going to write or what you want to write. It doesn’t exist for me now anymore. I can’t see myself being blocked anymore, I’m too old. If I want to write something, I’ll sit down and write something; it may work, or it may not work. Maybe it’s the fear that something is not going to work, and you have to overcome that fear. But I don’t have it anymore. People like some books, and others they don’t. That’s the way things are. I’ll keep on writing as long as I can. Jenny: Coming to an end where can readers find you – on or off line . . . Rennie: People can find me on my website – http://www.rennieairth.net/ if they google my name, they’ll get my website. I don’t do social media otherwise but happy to have contact with readers through the website. Jenny: We’ve come to the end of our chat, and we’ve had a lovely time together. I so appreciate it, and I love your stories- we could talk all night I think! Rennie: It was very nice talking to you Jenny, and good luck with your writing! Jenny: Very nice talking to you. Thanks To Our Technical Support: The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical help from Dan Cotton at DC Audio Services. Dan is an experienced sound and video engineer who’s ready and available to help you with your next project… Seek him out at [email protected] or Phone + 64 – 21979539. He’s fast, takes pride in getting it right, and lovely to work with. Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20 years of experience on both sides of the camera/microphone as a cameraman/director and also voice artist and television presenter. Abe’s vocal delivery is both light hearted and warm and he is super easy to work with no matter the job. You’ll find him at [email protected]

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