Terry Shames is an award winning mystery writer whose Samuel Craddock series captures the flavour of small town Texas so well she’s been voted one of the state’s Top Five mystery authors. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Terry talks about how she built a successful writing career and what she’d do differently second time round. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: How she learned to “get serious” about her writing The attraction of central Texas How her characters can surprise her Her adventures before writing The writers she most admires And what she’d do differently if she was starting over Where to find Terry Shames Website: https://www.terryshames.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/TShames Twitter: https://twitter.com/TerryShames What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny: But now, here’s Terry. . Hello there Terry and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. Terry: Thank you Jenny, Thanks for having me. Jenny: Beginning at the beginning – was there a “Once Upon A Time” moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction? And if there was a catalyst for this, what was it? Mystery author Terry Shames Terry: Well, that’s a funny one! First of all, when I was in the fifth grade- that’s about 11 years old- I read a short story in class and I thought, I would love to write stories like that. Even earlier then that I remember in first or second grade I used to love to read mysteries. So I was always thinking, “I’d love to write one of these”. Then in the ninth grade, I had a class where the teacher gave us an assignment and told us to write about anything. When she got the assignments back, she said “well I loved all your stories, but there’s one story that I thought was really outstanding and you’ll love”. I knew it would be mine, and it was! And I was hooked! Jenny: Your Samuel Craddock mysteries feature a semi-retired, small town Texas police chief and you’ve recently published the seventh book in the series . . The books have won or been finalists in several Macavity mystery awards. What made you decide to go for a mystery series? Samuel Craddock mystery – Book One Terry: Well, a couple of things. I used to love to read mysteries, and of course I cut my teeth on Nancy Drew like everyone. But I also liked Hardy Boys, I was a fan of most mysteries. I just decided that that would be a nice way to get started. but honestly, the first book I ever wrote was a science fiction book, it was crazy. The science fiction book was fun to write, but I realised I really didn’t have that kind of imagination. I was really writing a science fiction mystery. I realised that that was where I really wanted to go – mysteries. Jenny: And had you read science fiction before? Terry: Oh yes, I was always very fond of science fiction! I still am. I think that science fiction is having a revival, and if I could write with that kind of imagination, I would do it in a heartbeat. But I read science fiction books now, and I’m just in awe of people who have that kind of imagination. Jenny: Sure. Would you classify Samuel Craddock as a cozy mystery? Sometimes I’m a little confused as to what are considered as ‘cozies’. Terry: I have never thought of it as cozy, because the subjects are very serious and Samuel Craddock was retired when the first books started. In the third book, he became the Chief of Police again and he continues now to be the Chief of Police. So I think of them more as police procedurals or traditional mysteries, because there are some elements especially for some reason as I’ve gotten farther along in the mysteries, they’re darker. I don’t find cozies dark at all. I think they’re light hearted and certainly there’s an element of humour in them, but I don’t think of Craddock as a cozy, no. Jenny: Sure. The last one that has been published has got quite a dark subtext there with the dog fights and things Terry: For some reason I gave Samuel a puppy to kind of balance that out! So in that sense, I suppose there is a cozy element to having a puppy, but that doesn’t make it cozy. Jenny: No, that probably just satisfies the people who like dogs! Samuel is a very likeable lead character – a “salt of the earth” widower with a compassionate heart who develops and changes as the books continue. . . How much of a challenge is it to keep him fresh and changing – especially as he is a “mature” man . . Samuel Craddock mystery – Book Two Terry: You know, I’m not exactly sure why this is the case but I feel as if when I’m not writing these series that the characters in it move on; that they end up living a life outside of me. I know that sounds bizarre. But that’s the way I feel, as if when I start writing I feel like I’m checking back in on them. For example the work I’m doing now is six months later than the previous book. I feel as if things have changed in everyone’s lives, and people are moving forward as they do in real life. So I’ve never found that a problem at all. Introducing a new love interest was a bit of a challenge, because I wasn’t sure exactly how to handle more overt interest in his part for this woman. But it seems to be working OK, although one woman said to me- “I don’t want you to marry Samuel off because I want him for myself!” It’s wonderful, I love it. Jenny: I guess that’s one of the attractions of the series for readers as well- that the characters are moving on, and they have that same sense of “Oh I wonder what Samuel is up to now”. Terry: Yes, exactly. Jenny: One of the interesting side lights to the series is Samuel’s passion for his art collection – particularly Wolf Kahn pastels. I admit I hadn’t ever heard of this artist – but I see he still living at 91 and his work online looks gorgeous! Do you have a personal interest in that particular artist, and can we assume you are also a collector? Wolf Kahn pastel Terry: No, not in that particular artist. My sister is an artist, and she takes me to Wolf Kahn. I’ve always had a good feeling about it, but I’m actually a real fan of the California Art Schools in the 60’s and 70’s. Of course I would love to own one of those, but they’re way out of anyone’s price range these days. I started getting an interest in art years ago, when I lived in Washington DC a long time ago. I was dating a man who took me to some art shows, and I was just stunned. I’d just never seen anything like it. I loved modern art and contemporary art, and I still do. When I go to a city, the first thing I do is check out the art museums and galleries just to see what the newest things are. It’s wonderful. Jenny: Yes, it is. I did Art History at one stage in my degree, and I very modestly buy art here so that’s something that I share an interest in. Terry: I actually have painted a few things myself, and I just enjoy doing it. But it’s more definitely in the realm of hobby for me- just enjoying seeing colours and movement, and that sort of thing. I really enjoy that. But I can tell you a little story about how the art came to be in the Samuel Craddock series if you’d like to know that. Jenny: Oh yes! Terry: OK, first of all I had an uncle when I was growing up who was an artist and he did some paintings. He stopped after a while, but when I was a child I was absolutely amazed that anyone I knew could do art. And then later on, it seemed that a member of our family – this is a distant cousin – turned out to do some really fantastic art, and he came to a bad end. When I was writing the first book, I thought I’d like to feature this young boy, but give him a different kind of ending and a different life, rather then this bad end. I thought, Samuel has to recognise this young boy has talent. How is he going to recognise that unless he knows art? And this was in my mind as I was forming the first Samuel Craddock series. So I realised that in order to understand art, he had to have some art in his life and I thought- what if his wife is an art collector? So that’s where the art element came from. Jenny: And it is lovely that it is a device for you to be able to also measure his attachment to his wife, because it’s something they shared and that he learnt and enjoyed from her. That gives it an added dimension. You’ve also been named “One of the top five Texas mystery authors” – although you live in California!! Why did you choose to set your work in the fictional town of Jarrett Creek? Terry Shames Book Three Craddock mysteries Terry: Well it’s based on the town where my grandparents lived when I was growing up. It is an odd little town- people really like the town. If you were to go there, you would say “what in the world would anyone see in this town?” The water tastes horrible, it has got bugs and it’s muggy, hot and when it’s dry it’s dry, and there’s dirt everywhere! But there’s something about it that grabs you. There’s something very quintessentially Western about this town that I’ve always loved. I think another part of it though was when I was growing up, my grandfather, father and some of my uncles and also my mother were great story tellers. And so I have a memory as a child of listening to people tell stories, and it kind of worked itself into this feeling I have for the town. So when I started out to write a mystery series, I thought- where could I set this? I’d actually written a few short stories when I was in college that got published that were set in this town. And I thought- why not go back to that town? You know it, you have a feel for it, it’s in your blood. So that’s where it came about, I decided that that’s what I wanted to do. Also, Texas does not necessarily have a great reputation these days. But I remember it as a place where it was fun growing up as a child, not quite so self conscious as t these days. I decided I wanted to call on that sort of feeling, of people being a little more inclusive and open. So that’s where it came from. Jenny: And why did you not choose the real town that your grandparents lived in? Terry: Oh, I wanted to move things around! For example in the third book, I had some places out near the Hill Country in Texas, and I didn’t want him to have to drive the actual three or four hours it would take to get to the Hill Country. I moved the town over a little! It’s in the middle of Texas somewhere- but it’s fictional, so you can move it around! Jenny: And from what I’ve seen in your interviews, one of the fun things about writing a series is discovering new things about your characters.. You’re “in the dark” about some things just like your readers? I’m thinking of Ellen, one of the women Samuel gets friendly with – and how you discovered she had a secret . . . . . Terry: Well I’ll tell you where that came from! Joanne Love (Dru Ann Love) – I don’t know if know her, she’s a reviewer, and she has a blog called The Day in the Life. What she asks you to do is take one of your minor characters, and imagine a day in their life. So that’s what I did- I took Ellen and imagined a day in her life, and wrote what that would be like. Toward the end of the day, I felt like she was a little bit of a cipher. I couldn’t quite figure her out. I knew that some things had happened to her, and she was a little reserved and I knew she was a vegetarian. There were things about her that I knew very well, but she seemed like she had a reserved part of her. At the end of writing this little blurb for Joanne, it said ‘she had a secret’. And I thought what in the world is that? And then when I wrote the next book I thought, let’s find out what the secret is! So it came about that way! Moving to a more general focus, away from specific books to your wider career Jenny: Can we talk a little about life before writing? You’ve had some fascinating jobs, including working in Yellowstone Park and for the CIA as a computer analyst . . . Tell us a little about your journey to a full time writing career . . . . Yellowstone National Park Terry: You need to be much more jealous of the Yellowstone job then the CIA job! The Yellowstone Job was enormous fun. It was when I was in college; I worked there for two summers and it was a wonderful place to be as a young person. There were lots of college students there, it was great fun. I always knew I wanted to be a writer but of course I had to make a living. So the CIA job was wonderful and interesting, but I knew I’d never stay on the East Coast. So then I moved to Denver for a couple of years, and that was another experience. But I was always restless as a kid, I wanted to be moving around. I stayed in Europe for a while, and then finally wound up on the West Coast. I always wrote, no matter what I did. No matter what kind of job I did, I always would write. I would go out to my car in the middle of the day and eat lunch, and write a few pages. I was in the computer field for a long time, and suddenly I just decided to stop and take on a job. I just thought, OK it seems to me that real estate agents have time that they can make their own. Well that was not true of course, but that’s what it looked like to me! So I decided to take the real estate test- I took that and became a realtor, which I really enjoyed. I’m very social, and I enjoyed meeting people and enjoyed being in that. But meanwhile I said, “OK, if you’re going to do this, you also need to be very serious about writing”. So I finally sat down to write my first novel, and every night when I got done with my work, I would say to myself, you have to write five pages or whatever before you can go to bed. I don’t care what time it is, you have to do that. Eventually my husband said – “I don’t ever get to see you. You’re either working or writing until midnight sometimes. Why don’t you quit your job, and let me support you while you really try to become a writer”. That was a difficult thing, because I’m an independent woman. I didn’t really want to do it, but then eventually I gave in. I thought, I’ll try this. I was very fortunate to have a husband who was both able and willing to support my writing habits until they became successful. Jenny: That’s a lovely story. Did those jobs that you referred to – did they in any way contribute to your writing do you think? Did they help in any way? Samuel Carddock Book Six Terry: I don’t think there’s anything you do in life that doesn’t contribute to my writing. You meet all kinds of people, the kinds of people you work with, the situations you see and how they develop between people and writing is about people. It’s about people and the way people live, and how they interact. Things can be set in a lot of different places. That’s the answer I have for you; that it doesn’t really matter what you do, if you’re interested in human interaction, you’re going to get things from what you’re doing. Jenny: Is there one thing you’ve done in your writing career more than any other that’s been the secret to your success? Terry: Well, yes. It’s something that I wished I had done differently. And that is when I wished I had finally started taking myself seriously. When I wrote my first, second and third novels, I realised later that I wasn’t taking it seriously. I was just writing thinking, “this’ll be good enough, this will be an interesting story, this will be fun”. I have known people now, and I have known people who were successful right out of the shute. I realised that they took themselves seriously from the very beginning. They wanted to put out a really good product, a really good book. I had an interesting experience recently – I had six books that I wrote before the Samuel Craddock series. I thought they were pretty good books! Then about a year ago, I bought a new desk, and I told myself- this is your chance to go through all these boxes on the wall, take these manuscripts out of their boxes and see if there’s anything worth keeping. I kept coming to these books and reading them and going, what were you thinking! This is awful! It doesn’t have any depth to it, it doesn’t have any reality to it. I guess I could sense I was just practising but I also wasn’t serious. Samuel Craddock – Book Four I took a workshop put on by two writers, and in that workshop one of the woman said “if you want to be successful, you really have to take it seriously. If you’re going to make a great book, you’re going to make only you can write”. I had heard that phrase many times before, but for some reason at this point I was ready to hear it. Two months later, I sat down and thought- what is a book only I can write? And it took me two months to write the first Samuel Craddock because it just poured out of me. It was my book, and I knew immediately this was what I was supposed to be writing. Jenny: So with those previous works, did any of them get published? Terry: No, but almost. I had no trouble getting an agent. I’d get an agent and they’d say it was wonderful, and that I could get it published right away. But the publishers would come back and they’d say “I like the characters, but I don’t like the plot”, or “I like the plot, but I don’t like the characters”. Now I know what that means is it just didn’t have enough of whatever that magic element is that makes a book really stand out from the crowd. In all the books I wrote, when I went back and looked at it, there was maybe one that I thought wasn’t a bad idea. I could maybe revive after this a while, but I haven’t because I have constantly new ideas. So I don’t feel any need to go back. Jenny: Is there a mystery in your own life that would make a good plot line? (Maybe this is where the botched operation comes in!!!) Terry: You know, this goes back to what you asked me about what I got from my work. I just think that every human being is a mystery. Everybody’s lives have some mystery to them that no one can really know. We’re all unknowable people. We have thoughts and dreams and fears that even the closest people to us don’t necessarily know. So in that sense yes, but in the sense of if there is a mystery- I have a lot of mysteries in my family. A lot of little funny incidents and weird things like that. But in my own life, I feel like I’m just like everyone. When I start to write these mysteries, I’m interested in whatever character I’m dealing with and what is up with them. I don’t necessarily feel that it comes directly from me. There’s no particular mystery in my life! I’m just as mysterious as everyone else, and just as open as everyone else. Jenny: If you were suggesting a magical mystery literary tour for your readers, where would you suggest they go to soak up the “real Texas”? Terry: The books are set in a small town in mid Texas. Texas is really big, and that part of Texas- Eastern Texas- and they could be set in another country entirely. There are no pine trees in my part of Texas, and you go to the Gold Coast area and you get an entirely different feel. So I would say you have to go to some of the small towns in central Texas like the towns around Caldwell- any of the small towns you go around, you get that feeling of this particular time. Main Street Caldwell, Central Texas I’ll tell you- the thing about that part of Texas always fascinated me. It is an area where times are bad – when the economy is really poor, it goes to the bottom right away. When the economy is great, it pulls itself gradually up and gets better. But the second the economy turns, it’s gone again. It’s a not very financially successful area of the country. It has a kind of weary provincial feel to it that has always fascinated me. Jenny: Is it a place that tourists would go to? Terry: No, it isn’t. But I can tell you this – when I started writing about Ellen, who came to town to start an art gallery – she comes to town to start an art gallery- and a little art workshop. I wrote this thinking, how funny it would be in this little town for this to happen! The town basically has about one and a half blocks of Main Street. Somerville Texas – lake and park After the book was written, and sent off to my editor, I said to my sister who lives in Texas – why don’t we go back to Somerville and just drive around so I can renew my thoughts about it. So we’re driving down Main Street, and there is an art gallery and a workshop! We immediately parked and I ran inside and said, where did this come from? She said “Oh we’ve just opened a very short time ago”. Now every year, it turns out that several small towns have these little art galleries now, and they actually have an art tour where you can drive, and people come to this little area to drive from place to place and look at the art! I just find it fascinating. (See Arts Council of Bravos Valley Turning to Terry as reader Jenny: The series is called “The Joys of Binge Reading” because I see it as providing inspiration for people who like to read series . . . .So – turning to your taste in fiction who do you “binge read” ? Terry: I’m such a passionate reader, but I’ll tell you one quick story of my own writing, and that is this morning! This very morning, I went to my exercise class and two weeks ago this woman ran up to me and she said ” I’m reading your first book”. This morning she came up to me and said “I’m up to number four now!” But here are the people I read immediately: Timothy Hallinan, I immediately snap him up. Joe Lansdale is another favorite – try The Thicket. And Robert Crais– I always read Robert Crais. It’s interesting- I don’t really like cosies, but I read Rhys Bowen’s Lady Georgia series because they’re so funny. They’re wonderful fun. Deborah Crombie- she has a wonderful series set in England. She’s not English, she’s from Dallas, Texas. Yet she writes this wonderful series where you feel like you’re just right in the heart of England. Also Joe Clifford, who has not written many books but I love his sense of desolation in his novels. I have to say I am so pleased with my editor at Seventh Street Books. The books that he chooses to publish are just top notch. I can pick up any author from Seventh Street Books, and I actually ran into a bookseller who said they were always thrilled when a Seventh Street Book came out, because the authors there are just wonderful. James Ziskin, Mark Pryor, Robin Yocum – any of those books are wonderful. Lots of good books . . . Jenny: Are most of those mysteries or thrillers? Terry: I would say the Timothy Hallinan books are mysteries set in Bangkok, and another set in Los Angeles. The Los Angeles one features a thief who solves crimes and Bangkok one features a journalist who solves crimes. I don’t know what you’d call those- they’re not exactly thrillers, but they’re crime mysteries. For example, Robert Crais has a PI and Deborah Crombie has a police detective. Tim Hafferty – Poke Rafferty thriller Jenny: I share your love of Robert Crais, I think he’s fantastic. Terry: Yes his books are just wonderful and Robert’s also a nice man. Circling back to the end (I see this as a bit of a narrative) Jenny: At this stage in your career, if you were doing it all again, what would you change – if anything? Terry: I think I alluded to this a little bit earlier- that I would take myself more seriously- but I can be more specific about that. When I first started, I opened Publisher’s Weekly, that had all the stuff about agents, and I just chose an agent at random and sent the thing off. They took it, which was nice. But I knew nothing about how the process worked. I didn’t know that I should be checking in with them. I didn’t know what I should expect from an agent, or whether this was a good agency. By pure luck, it was a very reputable agency. He was not able to sell my book, but he was serious and reputable. Then I decided to move on. But I kept on just flinging things at the wall, and hoping that they would stick. Nowadays, I would research and I would read all the articles in the Publisher’s Weekly or online and say “what is it I need to know to make success here. What elements do my books have to have; how can I be professional here?” It took me a long time to get to that, so I think I could have shortened that. A friend of mine – Lisa Brackmann – she writes a magnificent book – and her first book just came out of the shute perfectly. It was a wonderful book. Now that I know her personally, I know that she is very serious about getting everything right and very serious about the books she publishes. I think that’s the key to successful writers- they really know not just the creative side, but the business side. Lisa Brackmann – Black Swan Rising Jenny: What is next for Terry as writer? New projects under development? Terry: I am about 60,000 words into my next Samuel Craddock which is a little more than two thirds complete. I’m doing that thing where I know what the end is, but now I have to figure out ways to get it to the end! It drives me crazy at every point of this book. It was interesting- I was very happy to take a workshop from Jeffery Deaver recently, and he talked about the panic that writers go through at some stage in their writing. They don’t want to disappoint their readers and they want the book to be good enough. My last book I hated – I hated it by the time I was done with it. And yet people seem to like it! But there comes a point where you just don’t even know how the book feels. I have another one that I’ve written that I’m not pleased with, and I have to kind of figure out whether it’s worth dealing with. Jenny: Where can readers find you on line? Terry: They can find me on my website- www.terryshames.com – or on Facebook. I have a Facebook page , a personal page and an author page. I also blog with Seven Criminal Minds. So you can find me on those places. I don’t do a lot of Twitter, and I’m just starting to realise it’s time for me to get into some of the visual platforms of media, but we’ll see. Perhaps Pinterest and Instagram. That’s never really appealed to me, but people seem to really like it. But my main three are my website, the Facebook page and the blog Seven Criminal Minds. Jenny: Well thank you so much Terry, all the very best for your writing. Terry: Thank you, this was wonderful. Jenny: Just quickly before you go – have you thought how many you might end up with in the Samuel Craddock series? Terry: I’m working on Number Eight now, and I have ideas for three more. Every time I think I don’t have anymore, suddenly an idea pops into my head. I’m so excited about the next one, I think it will be fun. It’s just a little germ of an idea. I’ve got three more where I could work up right now, so we’ll see! Jenny: That’s fantastic. Thanks again, and all the very best.

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