Chapter 1: What common belief about listeners does Chris Winchester challenge?
Smart, sharp, and slightly unhinged, Late Night's Fresh Perspective, The Last Show with David Cooper. Want to make a friend who's a really good listener? Make friends with an introvert. That is the common wisdom. But what if a chatty extrovert in the room is actually better at listening than an introvert? A new research study suggests that might be true.
I am here with Chris Winchester, a management professor at Texas Tech University, to discuss all of this. Chris, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, David. I'm thrilled to be here. Let's attack this stereotype that the quiet person in the room sitting there saying nothing is the best listener. What made you curious to test that assumption?
Yeah, so all of my co-authors and I were actually all introverts. And so just to preface the notion that, oh, it's extroverts trying to poke a hole in this and just say extroverts are better listeners.
Chapter 2: What sparked Chris Winchester's curiosity about listening styles?
No, we were all introverts. And we had seen on social media and books and articles and the pop press suggesting that introverts are better listeners. And so we were really excited to provide the first like really robust scientific evidence that introverts are indeed better listeners. But no, we did not find that.
So you went in a little arrogant. You're trying to prove what you thought about yourselves, that we are a group of great listeners and you got humbled by the science. Before we get to those results, though, how do we define good listening? What makes a good listener? Also, what are we talking about? I lost my train of thought.
Very good. I mean, good listening, which I mean, normally, David, you're very good at as a podcast host. The reason I love this question so much is because often we talk about, oh, yeah, you're a good listener or not. But at the end of the day, we don't even know what listening actually is. And what makes it so critical is listening is a process.
And so we usually like to be like, what's the difference between like hearing and listening? Well, the first thing you hear some auditory cue. In our context, we focus on conversations. And from there, that dovetails into what listening actually entails.
And it starts with a series of unobservable behaviors, like what's going on in your mind, which then drives the things that you can see people do, the observable behaviors, things like the eye contact, the nonverbals, repeating back what you hear. And that ultimately influences, are you a good listener or not?
And that, are you retaining, understanding, and responding to those initial auditory cues?
I really hope my mom is listening. She's probably hearing this interview, but I'm not sure she's listening. So observable behaviors, is that like interrupting you and recapping what you just said? Maybe not interrupting, but recapping. Is it nodding? Like what are the observable behaviors that would let me know that someone is in fact listening well?
Yeah, I mean, you're spot on. You literally hit two of the three most common and three of the ones that we look at. So you mentioned interruptions. There's actually two types of interruptions. Usually when you think like, oh, like stop interrupting me. Those are very intrusive interruptions. Like to refocus it back on me or just like randomly talk about, oh, but the weather today was nice.
Like we weren't talking about the weather today. What are you doing? But there's also cooperative interruptions. Where if you were to interrupt me right now, I'd be like, well, what was the first interruption that you just said? It shows that you're listening and engaged. And so that's one key piece. Another one that you mentioned, it's the nonverbals, the eye contact.
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Chapter 3: How do we define a good listener according to Chris Winchester?
Because what that does is ultimately drive trust in relationships. If I feel that you're listening to me, David, I'm going to have more trust in you at work. And my performance is going to increase on our team if I feel that I'm being listened to.
This sort of creates a bit of a perverse incentive. You could kind of be a bit sociopathic and like just pretend to all your coworkers you're a great listener, but actually not care and actually not digest it. And then get the promotion because everyone thinks David's this great listener.
I worry about people hearing this research and just thinking I need to improve my skills on seeming like a good listener versus actually being one.
I mean, well, that's the key, though, too, is if you like, oh, well, if I just fake like I'm a good listener. you're actually going to accidentally become a good listener because some of the best ways that you can become a good listener is by repeating back what someone is saying to you, summarizing what they're saying.
By doing that, you have to focus on what they're saying enough to summarize back to them. Same thing, if you're going to show the nonverbals are like smiling when they say something funny, well, you have to pay attention enough to know that what they're saying is funny. And so, by trying to seem like a good listener, you might accidentally become a good listener.
Wow, so it's kind of a bit like a fake it like you make it situation. A skill, a way to become a better listener is just practice the skills of good listeners and then you'll kind of absorb things and maybe become one yourself? Exactly.
I mean, because at the end of the day, like, great listeners aren't born they're made. And this is a great way to make yourself a better listener is by trying to seem like you're a better listener.
Okay. Well, I don't know anything that we just talked about because I wasn't listening. Can we practice and make me a better listener? Like what would you recommend to people who the last time they were sitting down with a friend or sitting down at work, someone said, you're a really lousy listener.
I mean, I think it boils down to, there's one general thing that I would suggest, and then three specific things that you can do. Because in this day and age where there's so much social media and distractions, and then now in the workplace, you have remote work and hybrid work, where conversations, it can become increasingly difficult to just pay attention.
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