ChatGPT and Therapy: Worsened Psychiatric Symptoms

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The Last Show with David Cooper 10 min 3 speakers 4 chapters transcribed
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What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

David Cooper 0:00
For those who know that questioning everything includes questioning this show's existence. The Last Show with David Cooper. People are outsourcing their sanity to robots, by which I mean they're taking mental health advice from tools like ChatGPT. And these bots, they sound warm, they sound fluent, sometimes even wise. But if you're struggling with real mental health issues like psychosis or intrusive thoughts, they might not be so good for you. Could these algorithms make your mental health problems worse? Well, that is exactly what a new study points to. I am joined by someone who worked on it. He is a medical doctor and professor at Aarhus University in Denmark. His name is Dr. Soren Diessen-Ostergaard.
David Cooper 0:47
Soren, welcome to the program. Thanks a lot for having me, David. There's been a lot of speculation in the mental health community about the efficacy and how good these chat bots are. But now the first studies about them are really coming out.

What are the risks of using ChatGPT for mental health advice?

David Cooper 1:00
I mean, the tools haven't been on the market that long. When you hear of people that are dealing with psychosis, delusions, real mental health problems, using these bots for help, what is your first instinct about how that could go?
Dr. Søren Dinesen Østergaard 1:13
I am a little bit worried, to be completely honest, because what seems to be the case is that for some of these individuals, not all, it can actually result in substantial worsening of their mental health.
David Cooper 1:30
And how do you actually discover that? Like you ended up doing a trial or a study of some sort? How did you set that all up?
Dr. Søren Dinesen Østergaard 1:38
Well, we did a study based on electronic health record data from the psychiatric service system where I work. We basically screened all of the clinical notes with descriptions of the patients and their symptoms for words such as chatbot or chatgpt. And then we read manually these notes to look at the content and what did they describe? Did they describe the patients getting better or did they describe worsening of their mental health? And in quite a few of these notes, we were observing that the patients were probably experiencing worsening as part of their interactions with these chatbots.
David Cooper 2:20
So can you give me an example about like a script of how this might go for someone struggling with mental health who decides to use a chatbot?
Dr. Søren Dinesen Østergaard 2:27
Yes, just sort of strictly hypothetical speaking, but also something that has actually been covered by the media. If you have, let's say, a paranoid delusion, you have thoughts about being followed, persecuted, and you share these thoughts with the chatbot, due to the way they're trained, they tend to agree with the users. And if you have an idea that you're being followed and the chatbot confirms that, that will basically consolidate your delusion saying, okay, I was actually right. There are somebody after me. And the car that I have been observing outside on the street is, in fact, the intelligence service spying on me or something along the lines of that. That would be one example.

How can ChatGPT potentially worsen psychiatric symptoms?

Dr. Søren Dinesen Østergaard 3:17
An alternative would be individuals with grandiose delusions that have this idea that they have gained a deep insight into something or developed a phenomenal business idea. If you share that idea with the chatbots, they will basically say, yeah, you're really on the right track here. This is extraordinary. You're really onto something. And again, your delusion will be consolidated by the chatbot. And that is quite unfortunate.
David Cooper 3:46
So when I'm dealing with these periods of delusion, having people be agreeable or being sycophants is not actually helpful. You need a professional to intervene and try to talk you out of the delusion. Is that kind of what ChatGPT is not doing?
Dr. Søren Dinesen Østergaard 3:59
Exactly. You need quite the contrary, right? You need people that are grounded in reality and will try to help you to remain within the real world, so to speak. And in these cases, it does seem that the chatbots do the exact opposite.
David Cooper 4:17
So your study shows that these bots aren't a great tool for people dealing with serious mental health issues like psychosis, intrusive thoughts. On the other side, what do you recommend we do?

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