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The Last Show with David Cooper

Guaranteed Pay For Delivery Drivers Doesn't Exactly Work

26 Mar 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What are the challenges faced by gig delivery drivers?

3.17 - 25.347 David Cooper

We're here because your heightened awareness deserves heightened entertainment The Last Show with David Cooper You would think guaranteeing higher pay for gig delivery drivers would mean higher pay. Simple, right? But when the city of Seattle tried it, something strange happened. The economics of the gig economy started behaving differently.

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25.407 - 44.923 David Cooper

Let's dive into just what happened with economics professor at Carnegie Mellon University, Andrew Guerin. Andrew, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me here today. Andy, I think we all want, you know, these gig drivers who don't have great jobs. They're tough jobs to make a great income. And so cities step in and they try to fix their pay.

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Chapter 2: How did Seattle attempt to guarantee higher pay for drivers?

44.943 - 50.693 David Cooper

They try to pass laws to make things a little better for drivers. Enter Seattle. What exactly happened there?

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51.128 - 72.801 Andrew Guerin

So there are a lot of gig workers who don't make a lot of money and policymakers, just like they want other sorts of low wage workers to be able to afford a decent living in an expensive city, want the same for gig workers. So a city like Seattle that's been at the frontier of raising minimum wage laws was concerned that these laws don't apply to gig workers who are self-employed.

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72.841 - 96.107 Andrew Guerin

They're not employees of any company formally, so the minimum wage doesn't apply to them. Seattle was a leader in trying to extend minimum pay laws to the gig economy by putting in regulations that ensured that for every delivery you do, you earn a certain amount in base pay, that that's either above a fixed minimum or some formula based on how far and how long you're driving and doing the job.

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Chapter 3: What unexpected outcomes arose from Seattle's pay guarantee law?

97.008 - 112.405 Andrew Guerin

And so at the start of 2024, this went into effect and we wanted to see, okay, How much better off is this making the drivers, focusing on most of the drivers who've been doing it pretty frequently beforehand and will continue to drive into that kind of post-reform period?

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112.823 - 115.487 David Cooper

Explain this to me like I'm an idiot, because probably I am.

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Chapter 4: How did the economics of the gig economy change in Seattle?

115.547 - 122.856 David Cooper

You would think a higher guaranteed pay would end up in higher pay. But let's dive into the mechanics. Why didn't it end up working out that way for everyone?

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123.057 - 139.759 Andrew Guerin

Yeah. And so what we did first, in what sense did they not make more money? We got data from this company called Gridwise. It's an app that they make for gig workers who can link all their various gig economy apps to this one central app that tracks their earnings. And we were able to get...

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139.739 - 150.998 Andrew Guerin

and get access to that data for research purposes, which lets us look at people who were in Seattle as delivery drivers beforehand and people in other parts of Washington state who were delivery drivers who were defected by this law.

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151.018 - 167.787 Andrew Guerin

And we were able to see what was happening to their gig economy earnings, delivery in particular, before and after this reform to see, OK, how are things evolving for the Seattle delivery drivers relative to a comparison group? And what we found is that there was one month where these drivers were earning more.

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167.827 - 185.663 Andrew Guerin

And then afterwards, at least on a monthly basis, they were earning exactly the same as the control group, which is basically to say the same as they were before the reform. And we thought, OK, did we just screw this up? Are we looking at the data wrong? And so we broke it down to its components. And what we saw is that it wasn't a mistake.

185.743 - 199.743 Andrew Guerin

Actually, you see everything moving the way it should be moving, which is that when you look at how much they're getting paid for each delivery, that is jumping in Seattle, just like it's supposed to. That's what the law regulates. It regulates base pay per delivery.

200.124 - 224.092 Andrew Guerin

But when you look at total earnings over the course of a month or a day, that is summing up not just the base pay for one trip, it's the base pay across all of your trips. And the tips on top of that as well. And we saw two things happening at the same time as that pay rate going up, is that drivers were doing 20 to 30% less delivery tasks per month or per day even.

224.413 - 224.774 David Cooper

Why?

224.794 - 245.274 Andrew Guerin

And- You might think, well, maybe they're quitting earlier. Maybe they don't have to work as long or as hard to make the same amount of money. But you'd think that with a minimum wage, the point is for people to earn more. And as we dug into the data, it doesn't look like people were just choosing to stop. We're happy with their earnings level if we're just stopping driving earlier.

Chapter 5: What data was used to analyze the impact on driver earnings?

246.777 - 268.921 Andrew Guerin

longer between deliveries, driving further to find the next order. I actually signed up for DoorDash and Uber to see what it feels like. And the way that it usually works is that you're in a big restaurant, buzzy district. You get an order request. You drive it out to kind of a far outlying neighborhood that's pretty residential. And at the end of that, then you need to get your next task.

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268.941 - 283.077 Andrew Guerin

If you just hang around there, there's no restaurants near there. So it's going to take a long time to get an order. So you start driving back Off the clock, on your own dime, burning your own gas money to an area where there are lots of restaurants. Hopefully you can get your kind of next gig.

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284.058 - 306.879 Andrew Guerin

And what it looks like is people are driving further, driving longer, spending more time, spending more gas, trying to find that next job as two things are really going on here. One is... Now that drivers are being paid more, apps are passing on those costs to consumers in the form of higher fees. There's a $5 fixed fee that they tag on.

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306.899 - 313.256 David Cooper

MARK MIRCHANDANI, Yeah, I've seen that here in New York. Yeah. And does that make consumers tip less? MARK MIRCHANDANI, And it makes consumers do two things less.

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313.316 - 352.553 Andrew Guerin

First, it makes them order less. And then second, it makes them tip less. And the tip, though, it's not just the fee that makes them tip less. And this year in New York, this is actually kind of ground zero for these battles. The apps actually went further with tips. And they actually disabled tipping at checkout. The city forced them to reverse that recently.

352.533 - 367.713 Andrew Guerin

If it becomes more lucrative to do gig work, you get more people piling onto the apps, kind of congesting the apps, which means like people spend more time trying to wait for their turn to get a delivery issued to them. So that's one set of things that we saw very clearly.

367.733 - 370.557 David Cooper

So more supply of labor means less work for the same amount.

370.597 - 387.255 Andrew Guerin

More supply, less demand. demand longer waits. At the same time, exactly what you're saying. On top of that, for every trip they're doing, the minimum wage applied to base pay rates, not to tips. And in delivery, because people are tipping 15% on their meal, the tips are usually actually the majority of pay.

387.315 - 404.426 Andrew Guerin

If you spend a half hour doing a delivery, usually you get paid something like $4 from the apps and $5 in tips on average. And so people didn't want to tip as much as they got these extra fees. And on top of that, the apps didn't want to, they say they didn't want to pressure people to tip as much.

Chapter 6: Why didn't higher guaranteed pay lead to increased earnings for drivers?

553.684 - 555.768 David Cooper

Kind of sounds like a lose-lose, but I appreciate you.

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555.788 - 564.503 Andrew Guerin

No, no. Well, it's just a trade-off. The flexibility of gig work is great, but high pay for a fixed set of workers is great. There's a trade-off. I don't think there's a free lunch where you get win-win.

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564.483 - 574.847 David Cooper

All right. Trade-off, trade-off. I'll give you at least that. I'm here with Andrew Guerin, an economics professor at Carnegie Mellon University. Andy, this has been a great chat. Thanks for joining me. Thank you so much.

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