Chapter 1: What are the reasons Gen Z is using ChatGPT to combat loneliness?
The day is done. We're just getting started. The last show with David Cooper.
Man, I'm going to sound old, but in my day when I was faced with loneliness as like a 20-year-old, I don't know. I went to more activities. I joined a club. I festered at home alone. These aren't great ways of coping, but that's how I did it. But young people, they've got a tool that we didn't. Chat.com. And it looks like Gen Zs are turning to it to speak to for therapy advice.
And we're going to pick this apart with Laurel Vander Torn, who helps run Laurel Therapy Collective. She's a licensed therapist. Laurel, welcome to the show.
Hey, David.
I have heard a lot about people seeking mental health advice or even seeking friendship, a cure for loneliness on ChatGPT. I've talked to some people who've studied it, but I don't know that I've talked to a therapist about it. Do you know people who are using these tools as a surrogate therapist or a surrogate friend?
Yes. And actually, a couple of them have found their way to our practice. And I'm curious, you know, what were they saying to ChatGPT that ChatGPT told them they need a human for? But I also appreciate that ChatGPT sent them our way because there are some real limitations with using ChatGPT for any kind of support, even if it's not mental health support.
It's just I'm sure anyone that's experimented with ChatGPT knows that it can be wrong quite often. And we tend to believe it when it's telling us what we want to hear or it feels good.
It is overly positive. They call this AI sycophancy, which I feel like should have been the word of the year if it wasn't.
Yeah, it's a good one. Because when we hear what we want to hear, it feels good and we're inclined to believe it. And if we don't get the response we want, we can just ask it to generate again. And that's not actually beneficial for our mental or social health.
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Chapter 2: How effective is ChatGPT as a surrogate therapist?
ChatGPT, I use ChatGPT all the time. It's great for like writing code. It's great for... Like, hey, I need you to say this in a different way. But if you're not bringing your own kind of critical thought to it and your own kind of mental fortitude, it's going to collapse as a useful tool pretty quickly.
So, again, like what what are some of the ways where people say, like, will you be my friend? What do you think of me socially? Like questions like that.
They may just want to talk about their day or, you know, complain to it. And it's going to be an endlessly affirming year, but it's not actually going to be helpful in the long run. In the short term, sure.
I didn't even realize I could say, hey, talk to me about my day. Ask me questions about my day and tell me what you think. Can you do that?
I guess you can. You can do anything, really. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend it, but you can.
Okay. Well, what would be the downsides? I feel like there are, but can you articulate them for me?
Yeah. Let's say you are the a-hole. ChatGPT is not going to call you on it. There's going to be no grist for the mill. It's just going to say, yeah, that makes total sense to me. I understand why you would feel that way, even if you're in the wrong.
Okay. Okay. So if I give it like a dilemma, like I get into a fight with a friend, for example.
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Chapter 3: What limitations exist when using ChatGPT for mental health support?
Yeah. Yeah. Or you're out there like kicking puppies or something. It's going to be like, it makes sense.
Laurel, I don't know why you went there. I'm not kicking puppies. I don't like puppies, but I would never kick them.
Figuratively. Yeah. It's not going to tell you, hey, that's wrong. I don't think you should do that. It will never tell you you shouldn't do that.
The authors of these tools, they say when things get too dark, like, you know, content warning here, like suicidal ideation or despair, that they're supposed to basically say like, hey, I'm not a mental health practitioner. Here are some resources. But I have my doubts that they would be able to catch all the cases.
There was a mental health AI company specifically that was basically trying to create AI therapists. And the founder and CEO shut the platform down because he said it was too dangerous because it was making people with serious mental health conditions worse. We've all heard about AI psychosis and other conditions like bipolar.
If you're having a manic episode, it's going to make that manic episode worse. It's going to be like, yeah, I think you should go to Vegas and spend your life savings. And there isn't a safety net that really needs to be in place.
Should I go to Vegas and spend my life savings? No, David. Is there an upside here, like accessibility for people who are just like busy and lonely and don't have the money to see a therapist and like aren't feeling great because they're doing university remotely and they're just like kind of isolated and they're using it a little bit.
Is there any upside here for using ChatGPT to deal with loneliness?
Yes.
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Chapter 4: How does ChatGPT's positivity affect user mental health?
Yeah, you can definitely ask it for healthy coping tools or like self-care ideas. You can ask, you could try asking it to be an accountability buddy. Like, hey, I really want to put my shoes on and leave the house or leave the dorm every day and like check in and like, okay, I left the house today. But I also think that if you said I didn't leave the house, it would be like, that's okay.
So I don't know how reliable it would be. But coping skills, absolutely. You could ask it to come up with a plan, like a self-care plan. Like on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, you're going to go for a walk. And on Tuesday and Thursday, you're going to do some yoga and stretching. That's great. Using it more for kind of like structural things rather than emotional things.
I've been sober for six and a half years, but when I, I'm an alcoholic, when I drank towards the end, when I knew I had to quit, I kind of like knew I was doing something bad for me, but I just didn't care. I feel like similarly young people are being told, don't use these tools for like deep levels of support. But they're just they know it's bad for them and they do it anyway.
What would you say to somebody who's like maybe even listening to our conversation right now and thinking, yeah, I know this isn't a great idea, but it's easy. It's quick. I'm going to do it anyway.
See what it's like once or twice a day to not go to chat GPT. It's that kind of like moderation thing. And like experiment with having a similar conversation with a human. It's not going to go the same way, but it will build up your tolerance and decrease the discomfort you feel in the human reactions.
And obviously you want to be talking to like a person that you would like to build up safety and trust with, not someone you know is not safe or trustworthy. But that's really the only way to decrease social anxiety is to basically do exposure therapy and see what it's like to have difficult conversations and have them go fine.
Yeah. So I got over arachnophobia. Now, I know we're talking about it like it's not a great thing, like there are better alternatives, but like it's here whether we like it or not. Is it up to therapists and people who are critical of it to just kind of accept it? Or will you keep fighting the good fight being like these are not good tools for loneliness necessarily?
Oh, I think that the therapists that are going to succeed are the therapists that are going to learn to work with it. So helping people understand like, yeah, this is what it's really great at and what it's useful for.
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Chapter 5: What social challenges is Gen Z facing in today's world?
And I love that it just helped you come up with a self-care plan for the rest of the week. That's great because... maybe that's not worth your time in therapy. So it can be a helpful adjunct. And I'm actually really excited to see how AI is used as an adjunct for certain treatment modalities that we don't have the time to go into here.
But I think that it has the power to enhance therapy when used well.
Laurel, I've enjoyed the chat. Thanks for being on the show.
Happy to be here.
Laurel Vander Torn. She's a licensed therapist and runs Laurel Therapy Collective. That serves California and Welcome to Survivor 50. February 25th on Global. We chose you to represent 25 years of the greatest adventure on television. It's the biggest season ever. The twist is going to open up Pandora's box. Now I see Zach Brown on Survivor. Welcome to Survivor. Mr. Beast.
Feels a little like a high school reunion meets a massacre. Survivor 50th season. Wednesday, February 25th on Global. Stream on Stack TV.
Thank you.
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