Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Please be advised that the following program contains audio content that may be graphic and potentially triggering for some listeners. This content may include descriptions or sounds that some may find disturbing. Listener discretion is strongly advised. This is The Last Show with David Cooper. Gambling addiction. It can often be framed as a money problem, wins, losses, debt.
But for some people, the stakes become a little darker. A new study finds nearly one in five problem gamblers report suicidal thoughts. Suicidal ideation. Why? Let's dive in here with psychology professor Steve Jordans from the University of Toronto Scarborough. Steve, welcome to the show.
Yeah, great to be back with you, David.
When I think gambling addiction, I think like ruined families, I think money, but the psychological fallout can go much deeper. Walk me through what can happen when someone's a problem gambler and they start struggling with their mental health.
Yeah. So, you know, often we think of like biological addictions, heroin or something, and we kind of get it that the body has this chemical reaction that can make somebody actually crave and become addicted to that chemical. Everything in our bodies is chemical. Everything is neurotransmitters. So a lot of these behavioral addictions like gambling... It's really the same thing.
The first step of it is the use of random rewards. Those random rewards, never knowing when something good is going to happen, but feeling like it's about to happen. Whenever we're in that state, we're having a whole lot of dopamine release. So the moment somebody puts a bet down, they start to feel like I could win. And that feels good. And they're kind of following that win and chasing that win.
If they don't win, they start to think, okay, the win must be right around the corner. And it's almost like the more they lose, the more convinced they become that win is right around the corner. And so they get really compelled to keep up the habit, and especially when they start losing money. Because when you start losing money, the question is, well, maybe I needed that money.
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Chapter 2: What are the risks of gambling addiction related to mental health?
Maybe that was rent money. Maybe that was food money. How do I get money back? The only thing that comes to their mind is to keep gambling. And so this can just lead to a cycle where they find themselves one day in a really horrible, horrible hole.
I'm sort of oddly positioned here. I believe, I mean, this hasn't been diagnosed by a psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, but I believe that I have an unrealized gambling problem. I've been to a casino in my life, maybe eight, nine times.
Chapter 3: How does gambling lead to suicidal thoughts?
And I remember I was in my twenties getting divorced pretty low at the time, like very low. And I went to a casino and I'm sitting at the blackjack table for like four hours and And I'm feeling on top of the world. Like my body is flooding with these tingly chemicals, you know, that you might associate with great times or like maybe not manic mood, but maybe, I don't know.
And so what I do is I just don't go to casinos, but I totally get it. For other people, they can go once a year, sit at a table for an hour, walk in with the maximum amount of money they plan to lose. And if they lose it, they walk away, no issues. It's fun for them, fine, whatever. But for some of us, it's like, it's a roller coaster.
Everything about these places feels amazing when you're winning.
It's been contrived that way. I mean, this is one of the things, you know, I'm a psychology guy. One of the things that kills me is to watch psychologists using psychology on the other side, on the dark side, as you will. And every casino has been created, you know, with every, you know, when other people win, they let you know when other people win.
That lets you think that wins right around the corner. Everyone's happy when they win.
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Chapter 4: What psychological factors contribute to gambling addiction?
They suppress their dark moods. They kind of express their really excitement moods. And so, yeah, it's a fun place. And I think that's the first thing to realize, that for a lot of gamblers, there's not a lot of external fun in their life. And this is a place where they can go and really, as you said, really feel good for a period of time. And that alone is almost socially addictive.
Like in some of these casinos, at least... They're gambling together, you know, versus the kid in the bedroom doing the sports gambling, gambling alone. So there is a bit of a benefit to the casino thing, but can you afford it? And that's the trick.
It's the barrier to entry. You got to get in the car. You got to go to the casino. Now with online gambling, it's worrisome. This new research paper in an academic journal, I think it's called Addictive Behaviors. This one in five people have reported suicidal thoughts online. who have problem gambling. Are you struck by that figure or for you, a psychology researcher, you're not surprised?
No. And so first of all, just to kind of understand, we know that in Canada with youth, it's somewhere around 30 to 40% are problem gamblers. So when you take that 30 to 40% that are problem gamblers and then say one in five of them can get to suicidal ideation, we're talking, you know, five to 10% of people. And, and that's quite a bit.
And it's, it's in part because of the addiction that's bad enough, but imagine you had a heroin addiction and, and you at some point have enough and you go into treatment, if you can stop doing heroin, yeah, you got to recover a little bit, et cetera, but you can sort of get back on your feet. If you stop gambling tomorrow, but you have a $50,000 debt, you have a $50,000 debt.
And often, we also know for every problem gambler, there's about five other people to five to 10 that are affected. That's usually their family. Like their family has to deal with this debt And for some people, they just don't want to bring that to the family. They find themselves in this hole, owing more money than they can afford, not wanting to ask anybody for support.
You know, what are your options? Your options become very slim. And for some of them, obviously, suicide becomes an option. All of the suicide websites now have special sections for problem gamblers to come and talk specifically about that issue. And, you know, it's really something we've created by a legalizing sports gambling. That's that's bad enough. But I always want to talk to one to punch.
And the second one is the marketing of sports gambling. It has been so aggressive. You cannot watch sports with your child without indoctrinating them into gambling and making them feel like if you're a real sports fan, you put money on the game. Don't stand on the sideline. You know, everything that every psychologist is saying to these kids to get them just to try.
Once they try, those random rewards do the rest. So it's something that's really been created over the last four or five years. It's something we can uncreate to some extent. We can get rid of the marketing. And that's part of what I'm fighting to do.
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Chapter 5: How does the cycle of gambling addiction affect mental health?
They're not going to help. It's my own fault. And then that kind of spiral of blame and feeling bad about yourself. And because you feel bad about yourself, you go and then do more things that'll make you feel bad about yourself. This kind of vicious cycle.
And there's a weird little step that sometimes happens in there, which is the becoming invisible cycle. When you either on your own accord or from others, like we know this from people experiencing homelessness, that one of the things they find horrible is that people don't acknowledge they exist. They just walk on by and that's feeling. And sometimes we do that to ourselves with gambling.
We're so embarrassed. We want to lie about what we're doing. So we back off and suddenly we're socially disconnected from everybody and we start to feel like nobody would miss us. And that's a terrible thing.
I'm here with psychology professor at the University of Toronto Scarborough, Steve Jordans. Steve, I've enjoyed this chat. Thanks so much for being on the show.
Yeah, always a pleasure, David. Thank you.
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