Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
Hey there, we are Indosport with me, John Molloy. We cover sport and we have things like this.
If you ask Arsenal's defenders, Gabriel and Saliba, to play in that PSG team or that Bayern team, they would be exposed as much as those centre-backs were last night. Because effectively, the attackers were on top. Then you ask the question, how many defenders were actually on the pitch last night? Because none of the full-backs have no interest in defending. They're like wingers.
And I've seen Saliba and Gabriel in an open game in that League Cup semi-final doubleheader against Newcastle last season get torn apart by Izak.
I won't have anyone convince me that they can defend in that space. Hello everybody and welcome to the Left Wing Podcast. Today we'll be looking back on Saturday's Champions Cup final. Bordeaux 41, Leinster 19.
A fifth consecutive Champions Cup final defeat for Leinster and we're going to discuss the game and where they go from here after what was kind of a humiliating match in many respects and plenty of questions to be asked and answered over the direction of the province in the short to medium term. I'm glad to be joined by Luke Fitzgerald as always. Luke, how are you? Yeah, good, Will. How are you?
Doing well. Doing well. Lots to get into. Also happy to have on Cian Tracy, who's actually joined us. I did the stats earlier after all five of Leinster's Champions Cup defeats, as well as their one victory in the tenure of the podcast. So Cian is our Champions Cup final guy. So I'd like to have him back with us. Cian, how are things?
Not good, Will, despite that intro. It hasn't gotten any easier to watch it back a couple of times. And if anything, watching it back was even worse, I think, than being in the stadium on Saturday. Obviously, you miss plenty when you're watching it live. And we didn't really have TV screens in the press box either.
So getting to watch it back was a pretty depressing weekend for Irish rugby all around.
Yeah, not too many positives. Before we kick off, the left wing is sponsored by Energia. Energia sponsors rugby in Ireland at all levels. At grassroots with the Energia AIL and as official energy partner to Leinster, Connacht and the Irish men's and women's teams. The Energia Rugby for All initiative supports inclusion, welcoming everyone of all abilities to participate in the game.
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Chapter 2: What happened in the Champions Cup final between Leinster and Bordeaux?
A dreadful first half performance. Tommy O'Brien scored that early try, but then scores from Maxime Lucu, Pablo Oberti. Two from Bia Bia Ray and Yoram Mofana picking off a Harry Byrne pass gave them an unassailable lead. And while McCarthy and Ringrose scored tries in the second half, the game was over. So much to discuss. But Luke, I'll give you first bite of free reign. Where do you want to go?
What are you thinking? What happened on Saturday?
Well, first of all, I got that one pretty wrong. So better say that to start. You really didn't see that kind of performance coming all right. It was extremely disappointing. I thought Bordeaux were pretty good. Alouka was outstanding. The kicking was brilliant. Their foundation was excellent at line out, pretty good at scrum too.
And then they just kind of let their finishers do the damage when the opportunities presented themselves. Not a very complicated business model, but a bloody effective one. And we couldn't say, and nor could Leinster, that we didn't know that that was kind of what this team was about. They don't need much to look very special because they really hurt you when you make any kind of mistakes.
So yeah, look, a really, really disappointing day for the province. I really didn't like particularly those last two tries that they let in before halftime. At 21-7, that's still a fairly assailable lead. And if they came out at the start of the second half and got a score on the board, it was game on. And I did think...
Aside from Bordeaux taking their foot off the pedal a bit, I thought the referee really helped Lensford in the second half. I thought Lukaku's yellow card was extremely harsh. Someone with a big long head of hair, I just thought that was silly. Maybe it's a high shot anyway because he's going for the collar, but it felt soft, felt like a penalty at most, which really did help Lensford.
He's such a good player, that guy. Wow, I think I underestimated just how good he is. because I don't see him week in week out but wow he was special from an answer perspective look I think the challenges right so I think I don't want to go on too long as well I'll try and maybe pull it to three because I want Keane to come in as well and we'll have a back and forth I'm sure but
You know, I think it was very sloppy, very, very sloppy. I think they'll be disappointed with the defense. I think that's something that they're going to have to have a real think about. I don't think this defense works against the best teams on the hot ground. I think it burns out your energy levels.
And I think the best teams can, you know, particularly someone like a, you know, a Toulouse, a Northampton to a certain extent, and obviously Bordeaux with real danger on the outsides and the South African teams as well.
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Chapter 3: How did Leinster's first-half performance impact the match outcome?
I think this defensive system it just gasses you out so early. You think back to Tommy O'Brien's try, 19 phases, and it was a really good, well-worked try. But Leinster had to work so, so hard through those 19 phases. And I thought they looked out on their feet from pretty early on. And I think Bordeaux sensed that. I think
You said if the first half had gone on longer, I think we have to acknowledge as well, lads, that Bordeaux stepped off the gears in the second half and we can give credit to Leinster because the scoreline could have been a hell of a lot more ugly and they did show good character. But I think a lot of that was Bordeaux saying, okay, we'll just ease off from the gears here.
We'll manage our energy. We'll manage our resources. And I don't think anything summed that up more than the fact that they were able to take off Chalibert with 10 minutes to go with one eye on the top 14. I mean, that was a serious flex. I thought Chalibert... I know Lukaku got man of the match and it's hard to argue with that, but I thought Jalibert was absolutely incredible.
One of those performances that when I watched it back just had a greater appreciation. And it's mad to think that back in the 2024 Six Nations opener when Ireland beat France in Marseille, Lukaku and Jalibert started that night and didn't have a good game at all. The improvements in both of their games over the last couple of years has been absolutely immense.
And I thought, you know, the difference in Jadiber and Harry Byrne was just absolutely stark. The direction that he gave them in attack. So there were so many issues there. But I think Bordeaux easing off in the second half was also why the scoreline didn't blow out even more than it did last year.
worth saying as well to tie in with that like I do think like there was some some big like so we I thought they made Bordeaux look very very good as well like I mean like Gibson Park going down on that like this so they get the block down Pinot Grubbers went through with the second last try in the first half why is Gibson Park why is he diving down on that ball there you know just you have an extra half it's like a moment of panic or tiredness or something bad decision for the try off the set play like what's Keenan doing
Like everyone's going to blame Ioanni to the untrained eye because it goes across his body and it looks like he's mixed up between the two guys. But like Keenan is completely, like Keenan's such a great player, but that's a brain fart as well.
Like he basically sitting there watching the cross field kick, but you're like, if, if, if once, once you see them engage the line, you know, the cross field kick is off and you have all the time if you're out there. So he needs to be hitting the second last man there. That's a basic, for such a good player. Keenan's one of the all-time greats for me. That's a very bad error.
Luke, was that not also? Just one other moment. Sorry, Keenan. I'll let you in just a sec. Even for Harry Byrne, it's an awful tired pass at the end of the first half. He's the main culprit for that one, right? But even Ryan, like, I love, you know me, I'm forever going on about Ryan. Throw out a hand. Like, grab the inside hand of it. Is it Mofana goes through? I'm not sure.
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Chapter 4: What are the criticisms of Leinster's defensive system after the final?
But to take that physical toll in that heat, it probably... two or three times the physicality that it would take maybe in regular weather.
I don't know, Luke, you'd probably... It was hotter than 25, not to be pedantic, but it was 29 degrees by kickoff for the Leinster game. And it's not just the heat, lads, it's the humidity, like, and that makes obviously everything sticky, but...
The way the San Mames is, it's not quite an enclosed roof, but the opening in the top is very, very narrow, which means that not a lot of air gets inside there. So it is completely stifling. It was definitely, without a shadow of a doubt, worse for the Challenge Cup final for Ulster on Friday night, but it was still... boiling and really difficult.
And that's not to make an excuse like Bordeaux didn't have any problems with it. But you're right, Will. They grow up in summers in France where it's much hotter. And they adapted to the conditions much better. I mean, they did a much shorter warm-up, which was quite noticeable, than Leinster. They seemed to adapt on the hoof, whereas Leinster had their set way of doing things.
And they could argue, look, it worked out because we started the game really well. But from there, they wilted badly. Yeah, for sure.
Look, it's not something I'm going to dwell on, but it is worth mentioning.
It's important to say that. I think, look, any of the UK or Irish teams, that's always going to be a bigger challenge for them. But look, they knew that. And then it's a case of, well, look, you're probably going to get... you know, five or 10 minutes less out of your guys, you know? Uh, and then, you know, do you adapt to, do you, do you play, do you, do you, do you kick it more?
Do you kick it more guys? Like, do you, so the lens, the problem for lens was that they were probably chasing the game a bit and it probably didn't feel right to be, say, putting up Gary owns if they were on the halfway or beyond, you're kind of saying, maybe we should continue going, you know, work for a pen or work for an opening, whatever it is. But,
The sensible play in hindsight probably would have been to start putting up some kind of cross-field Gary Owens. Things like that where you're kind of taking a bit of pressure off yourself, searching for ground, maybe slowing the game down just a little bit, helping your packet. And you wonder then, do you compound that with the defense?
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Chapter 5: What role did player errors play in Leinster's defeat?
Look at the draw that we've had to take to get here. We've done it the hard way. We're going to be more battle-hardened. And I think that played out in what we saw on Saturday. You're right, Will, the first elite team that they came up against, they fell short and they fell short by a long way.
You know, just looking at the Porto pathway, you're right. This is who they've beaten to win this Champions Cup. They beat the URC winners in Leinster. They beat the URC runners-up in the Bulls in Pretoria. They beat the Premiership winners in Bath. They beat last year's Premiership runners-up in Leicester in the last 16.
And they beat last year's Champions Cup runners-up in Northampton again earlier in the campaign. So you can't ask for...
a more difficult path and they beat the top 14 champions obviously in Toulouse they're arch rivals so you can't ask for a more difficult path or beating you know so many kind of high quality oppositions Luke it would be remiss of us not to have some sort of out half chat after the weekend obviously Harry Byrne got the nod there was a lot of talk about how he might play CiarƔn Frawley was on the bench he obviously came off the bench in the second half and and and
added some impetus. And now we have this interesting spectre over the rest of the season where there's still a quarterfinal of a URC to come this Saturday and there's potentially more knockout games to come. Frawley's out the door to count at the end of the year. Like there's lots in the melting pot here. How you think the two lads played at the weekend?
How you think they should select the 10 position going forward for the rest of this season? And there's a question about where they go in the medium term. Joey Carby's coming in the summer as well. Like there's lots to put into the kind of number 10 bucket after last weekend.
God, yeah. It feels like an absolute mess to me. Not all of their own making, but a little bit of their own making. I would question, when you see the difference that Frawley made when he came on, you probably just question some of the vision over the last couple of years about what they thought about him and how they managed him and why they'd ever really stuck with him past one or two games.
And they've stuck with other guys who have very clear faults in their game. longer and why they seem to put a huge amount of emphasis on how you run a week. I mean, you know, that one has never sat well with me. So, yeah, I mean, it was clear. I mean, look, in terms of the match, Burns struggled. Struggled in the heat. Struggled with kind of the small details.
Obviously, he finished the first half very poorly. I think the coaches obviously were seeing the same thing. He had a rough day. He had a rough day against Toulon. He had a rough day. a rough day against Bordeaux. Now, it was a very difficult task and the team were not playing well, but, you know, he didn't steady the ship either and that's part of the job role, unfortunately.
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Chapter 6: How is Leo Cullen's future as head coach being evaluated?
I don't... Where else has Nina Barr been? Barr, South Africa, where else has his defence been? What other team has he coached that the defence has been the best? How can you say where else in South Africa? He's won back-to-back World Cups. Is that not enough? The team is the absolute, by a mile, their squad is the best. By a mile. The All Blacks have fallen off a cliff.
France, you know, blew up against them in the quarterfinal. And they've been the closest to them. Sorry, I'm not sure I believe that. I think it's the best defensive system for South Africa, who have monsters on the inside so that you never get any go-for on the inside.
And they've got the fastest players on the outside, generally, so they can come up and back, up and back, and they can bail you out of situations like this defense. I'm just not convinced by that.
That's the point I was going to make is that his system suits the South African players and the South African model, but the system is proven to work with them. But it's now been shown that you can't just copy and paste that system onto players who haven't been brought up to play this way.
And every time they go into Ireland camp, they need to rewire their brains back into Simon Easterby's defensive system, which is not as aggressive as Jack Nienarber's. And then they have to go back to Leinster. That is very difficult. And the players have been open and honest about that. So while I think that we might disagree that his system has proven to be successful.
It just doesn't seem like it's a good fit for Leinster. So while they're going to have to look at the O'Cullens position and all that, I think they're also going to have to look at their DNA.
I think they're going to have to go back to the type of rugby, Luke, that they played under your great teams, that they played under Stuart Lancaster, because I think it's been proven that this model works for South Africa and it works very well for them and it hasn't worked for Leinster. You go back to their last three Champions Cups, which Jacques-Nin Arbor has been involved in,
The 2024 final against Toulouse, they actually only conceded one try that day, but they conceded 31 points. You go back to last year's semi-final, they conceded 37 points and five tries. You go back to last week's final, 41 points and five tries. I mean, the numbers are absolutely damning for a team that wants its point of difference to be its defence and defence.
Look, I just don't know how long more they'll stick with it. My sense is that it will be like this again next season. But certainly after the World Cup, I think the whole thing needs to be rebooted.
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Chapter 7: What were the implications of the heat and conditions on player performance?
And to Cullen's point about putting players into the Ireland team, the idea that another coach would come in and that wouldn't still be the case, I think, is fanciful. I think there's plenty of coaches who could maintain Lentz's position as the bulk supplier. A lot of people mentioned how many...
home playoff games have got another Leo Cullen's watch but again the idea that another coach couldn't come in and do that or potentially better that I don't really buy either I think it's a very cautious and safe approach to say oh if we get rid of Leo Cullen and get another coach in Oh, what if we don't do as well as he's done? Okay, that's a possibility.
But Jesus, if that's your outlook, you'll never make any big decisions or make any big calls.
I just think at times, and we've probably reached a point in the past when there's been calls for his head, you be careful what you wish for. I mean, you could have a Matt O'Connor situation all over again where It takes so much time to rebuild all the good work that had been done.
And I don't think it's something that we should gloss over, that the amount of Ireland internationals that he's proved, because it is a difficult job to keep that many people happy within Leinster.
Is there a bit of that though, Cian, just on that point, like is there a bit of like Munster really... There's been a bit of a drop-off in the other provinces over the last couple of years. Now, I think there's a little bit of a resurgence in terms of some of the young talent coming through.
Actually, in all the provinces, in the last year, I've actually seen a few guys that have gone, okay, I'm seeing a bit of that. It feels like it's closer to, say, some of Leinster's talent pool. There was a couple of years where Leinster were... You couldn't see... there was 22 or whatever in a squad of 35 or maybe even more of Leinster guys, you know, like in a way it was ridiculous.
Um, but I think that, I don't know. I, I, I feel like there's a bit of that story is to do with how the other provinces have been performing and bringing through talent over the last couple of years. Um, so I don't think it's all, I'm not sure he can claim that it's all that. And it's, obviously this is a friend of mine. This is like really difficult for me to be even talking about, but, um,
I'm not sure that part is all the credit or he deserves all the credit for that part. I'm not sure about that. And what would you do, Luke? I really don't know. Uh, Kim, I'm really stuck on it. I don't know who's available. I see some Scott Robertson talk and you know, he's obviously was unbelievable for a long period of time.
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