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The MeatEater Podcast

Ep. 892: Ryan Callaghan on Public Lands and Conservation

22 Jun 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?

0.031 - 3.575

This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.

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4.556 - 29.042 Steven Rinella

If you do off-season work, you know what beats up gear. Scouting, land work, crawling through briar patches, brush, weather, long days. First Light Fieldwear is built for all that. No shortcuts. Purpose-built, durable. Hard-wearing where it needs to be. Versatile where it matters. It supports the work that earns the season. Check out First Light's new fieldwear collection at firstlight.com.

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37.898 - 46.808

This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely bug-bitten, and in my case, underwearless. We hunt the Meat Eater Podcast.

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47.468 - 77.86 Steven Rinella

You can't predict anything. Brought to you by First Light. When I'm hunting, I need gear that won't quit. First Light builds no compromise gear that keeps me in the field longer. No shortcuts, just gear that works. Check it out at firstlight.com. That's F-I-R-S-T.com. L-I-T-E dot com. Good Lord, it's Ryan Callahan back from the dead. Yeah. Or back from fatherhood. You had a baby.

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79.021 - 80.703 Ryan Callaghan

I assisted in having a baby.

80.783 - 82.044 Steven Rinella

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand.

82.104 - 95.597 Ryan Callaghan

How long ago? So Friday is the birthday, so it's very easy to keep track unless you're in between Fridays like we are right now. So it's two and a half weeks. Two and a half weeks? No, three weeks.

95.763 - 96.444 Steven Rinella

First child ever.

96.464 - 104.537 Ryan Callaghan

Three and a half weeks, yeah. First child ever. And baby boy came out seven pounds, five ounces.

Chapter 2: How has becoming a new dad changed Ryan Callaghan's perspective?

197.905 - 198.245 Ryan Callaghan

Oh, yeah.

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198.405 - 199.227 Steven Rinella

You get three days.

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199.948 - 225.568 Ryan Callaghan

I was talking to my buddy Kyler, who I used to build houses with, and he's like, two days per kid. That's what we do, you know? And I'm like, I'm just like so blown away by it. Like I get a focus on this as my job and get through that initial learning curve. It's all a learning curve, but, and will be forever, I suppose. But I, I'm just blown away by that. I'm like, this is.

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225.937 - 233.904 Ryan Callaghan

And I just feel like it's got to make for better relationships between the parent and child bond and all those things.

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233.924 - 260.277 Steven Rinella

Oh, like the dad gets to be there and help a little bit at first. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Now, I took note that you somehow managed to get the baby out of the hospital without it having a name. Yeah. And when we had our kids, I felt that by the time we went away, they had a name. Yep. How did you, what did you have to say to say that I don't know the name yet?

261.038 - 276.52 Ryan Callaghan

You know, the thing that I think got us out of there without the name is the fact that somebody was like, well, I thought you legally had to have a name. And I said, no, you don't. And the hospital admin person kind of pauses for a second.

277.301 - 279.023 Steven Rinella

Are you serious? You guys discussed it.

279.344 - 291.148 Ryan Callaghan

Yeah. Yeah. Because we were fully being like, oh yeah, we're going to see the little nipper. This is how the whole thing's going to go. And by the time we leave, we'll have the name.

291.469 - 292.451 Steven Rinella

He looks like a Chucky.

Chapter 3: What challenges does Ryan face regarding naming his child?

808.998 - 827.794 Ryan Callaghan

So by and large, if we were like a for-profit business, building the widget, as they say in the business world, that widget would be conservation leaders. And it's like people who show up and want to do stuff.

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829.095 - 846.216 Ryan Callaghan

And that is advocate for their issues, um, which, you know, if you're working on behalf of BHA, it's, it's our issues too, but public land, public water, public wildlife, and the access word would be like access to those things.

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847.021 - 876.572 Ryan Callaghan

Um, and that can get kind of nuanced on, on the wildlife side of things. Um, but it, it makes the organization a little more swift and adaptable. And then on stewardship, it is literally coming out and augmenting landscape. So habitat work, which for us would by and large be, um, trail improvements and, uh, juniper removal, um, some planting. Um, but.

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877.193 - 897.902 Ryan Callaghan

Our migration corridor work is really, really significant. And again, because of our scope, nobody really knows about it, but we just got the Bureau of Land Management's Conservation Partner of the Year Award. Oh, really? Which, like we just punched so far out of our weight class.

898.642 - 924.16 Ryan Callaghan

There are a lot of really big organizations, get this, that have hundreds of employees and deal in many, many millions of dollars of federal grant work to do this stuff. And so, yeah, really incredible that we got this award. And we almost exclusively remove or augment fence within migration corridors. Okay. Which...

925.321 - 930.709 Ryan Callaghan

basically you have your big grazing doing like the physical work, the physical work.

930.729 - 944.568 Steven Rinella

So people might use GPS collar data or car crash data to know that these are problematic areas along migration corridors and do the physical hands-on work of removing barriers. Yeah.

944.588 - 973.821 Ryan Callaghan

And oftentimes it's, it's your grazer on the ground who has their allotment and they're like, you can't keep a fence up here. Oh, like, We build them in the spring and winter migration comes and they all go down type of thing. Yeah. And so we'll go in there, uh, survey those fence lines. And, uh, so you have like your, your allotment fences, which kind of by design of the BLM are always firm.

Chapter 4: How does Ryan Callaghan describe his new role as CEO?

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2412.571 - 2423.786 Steven Rinella

But in fishing game law, there is, there's a social contract, right? You don't go like, I better get a license because I'll get checked today. You're just like, you feel this moral obligation to get your license.

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2424.086 - 2427.611 Ryan Callaghan

Right. The math does not add up on getting checked.

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2428.232 - 2432.177 Steven Rinella

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. You do it out of some, like, because you do it because you believe in the system.

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2432.309 - 2432.63 Ryan Callaghan

Yeah.

2432.79 - 2433.431 Steven Rinella

To some degree.

2433.491 - 2459.378 Ryan Callaghan

Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, we were relatively small conservation group, right. But, um, I mean, if, if that is the goal, it will never end, but I would sure like it to, right. Like if we had a nationalistic pride in these resources, um, and They are resources. Extraction is part of who we are as well.

2459.919 - 2494.161 Ryan Callaghan

But there's been many times throughout our history where we were like, oh my God, we need to self-regulate. And that self-regulation turns into a whole system of regulations because it has just got to happen. And what's really interesting right now is like, I know through conversations you know, from the White House throughout the Senate and the House, there is a drive right now for deregulation.

2494.622 - 2495.122

Yeah.

Chapter 5: What are the challenges of managing public land access?

4002.555 - 4014.822 Ryan Callaghan

It's actually more sensitive to So we actually want a little less human pressure up there. So that is the reason that the road's a pain in the ass. Yeah.

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4015.222 - 4017.805 Steven Rinella

Like no one's trying to make it a high traffic area.

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4018.145 - 4018.686 Ryan Callaghan

Exactly.

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4019.046 - 4019.147 Steven Rinella

Yeah.

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4019.167 - 4032.401 Ryan Callaghan

And we also don't have the staff to maintain that one on a every single day basis like we do down here, which is why we're diverting more traffic down here.

4032.621 - 4032.961 Steven Rinella

Yeah.

4032.981 - 4033.702 Ryan Callaghan

Type of thing.

4033.722 - 4060.716 Steven Rinella

What do you think what on the on that ohv on the off-road rule change or paving the way for yeah rule changes going forward what is the real deep down motivating factor like what is someone after um i i think it is another case of just like the pendulum swinging really hard i think

4060.848 - 4087.868 Ryan Callaghan

uh, roadless rule is, is also a case of this, the pendulum swinging really hard where, um, and, and we've gotten direct feedback, uh, as to, I just want to say like our communication at BHA has changed a lot and I'm adamant that we take an issue. We break it down in a nonpartisan fashion, take it or leave it. It is just what's happening.

Chapter 6: How is the Roadless Rule impacting conservation efforts?

4088.253 - 4090.956 Ryan Callaghan

There's a page break. Here's BHA's position and why.

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4092.799 - 4114.566 Ryan Callaghan

I got it. And we're a membership organization, which is awesome because I get to say like, this is what the membership wants. And we actually, yeah, we just, we've had some high level meetings because people have been paying attention to our communications and saying like, hey, thank you for not raking us over the coals on this. Got it. We were told everybody wants this.

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4116.869 - 4147.175 Ryan Callaghan

Like we were told that. Why is it that we're getting beat up here, here, here, here, and here? And I say, well, we represent a bunch of people who actually love this, and it is not always congruous with that. And the reason that we're in this situation is because... You know, certain, we kind of divert certain people up certain trails and we divert other people up other trails.

4147.936 - 4169.446 Ryan Callaghan

And when you're riding really fast on a dirt bike, you don't really want to be stopping for backpackers all the time. And that's kind of how we have this system. And conversely, you got a string of mules. You don't want mountain bikes or, or motorbikes ripping really fast. Um, especially in spots where there's no place to divert. Right.

4169.466 - 4188.994 Ryan Callaghan

So capital W wilderness and, um, and some WSA ground and stuff like that. Right. So there's just a huge burden of education that has to happen here. And, and within the first Trump administration, this Trump administration, they move incredibly fast.

4189.255 - 4190.036

Yeah.

Chapter 7: What are the implications of the corner crossing debate?

4190.056 - 4215.167 Ryan Callaghan

Incredibly fast. And there's a bunch of catch up that's happening. And, and I posted when this OHV order came out, I said, listen, I'm not worried about the motorized use community at large. I'm not aware of any motorized groups that want to see habitat destruction, that want to see a decrease in wildlife populations that, you know.

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4215.627 - 4216.889 Steven Rinella

Yeah. No one has that policy.

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4216.909 - 4241.33 Ryan Callaghan

They don't, they don't, that's not part of the mission statement. But every single user group out there has people that are more than willing to color outside the lines. And I am worried. that because of the way that this is messaged, that we're going to see those people out there representing the outdoor community. And it's a burden on all of us, right?

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4242.051 - 4259.008 Ryan Callaghan

It's like, if you don't have folks who are out there using public lands frequently, even just on like, this is what I do most weekends type of basis, you show up and you're like, oh my God, the people that come out to these places, are total pigs.

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4259.709 - 4259.869

Yeah.

4259.909 - 4271.32 Ryan Callaghan

Right. Just as I've been reaching out to a lot of, uh, motorized industry folks and a lot of athletes right now to say like, Hey, let's work on some messaging that's on responsible use.

4271.68 - 4272.141

Got it.

4272.161 - 4274.843 Ryan Callaghan

And the response has been like, oh, absolutely.

4275.104 - 4276.445 Steven Rinella

Really? Yeah. Yeah.

Chapter 8: How can individuals contribute to conservation efforts?

4398.061 - 4427.022 Steven Rinella

what is someone really driving at there? Like, are they pursuing a particular end? And you said, it's just kind of a pendulum swing of trying to do a large scale reversal of a, of a, of a restriction that was in place with the role. This rule, is it like, is undoing the role, this rule meant to drive a particular project somewhere, or do you, do you accept it as just a more general

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4427.98 - 4438.133 Steven Rinella

Or is it tied to some like distinct thing that someone wants to do somewhere, but in order for them to do it, they have to undo the role of this rule.

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4439.015 - 4467.687 Ryan Callaghan

I, you know, I think it's both, um, that there's some, you know, real specific projects in mind. I really don't think it's timber. Um, I think it would be like mineral extraction. Um, and it is just part of this theme of like broad, deregulation. I think there's parts of the roadless rule that need to be greatly reformed.

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4471.472 - 4495.738 Ryan Callaghan

We're talking, so every state could have had their own version of the roadless rule. Idaho and Colorado are the only states that did that. So we're really talking about like 45 million acres. And we've said from the very beginning, It's like, well, tell us what you really want because the timber industry says this isn't about timber. It's not going to be 45 million acres.

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4497.18 - 4506.611 Ryan Callaghan

We're talking a few thousand here and here and here and maybe a couple hundred miles of road. Let's talk about that.

4506.731 - 4512.377 Steven Rinella

Inviting the conversation to get down to like, if this is about a thing, let's talk about the thing.

4512.558 - 4544.826 Ryan Callaghan

Yeah. Yep. Got it. And we haven't gotten there yet. I will tell you that there's legitimate gripes on the roadless rule because it is open to a little bit of interpretation. And there's been areas, districts for us, where the managers decided that they wanted a little extra buffer around their roadless rule. They're categorized roadless areas.

4544.846 - 4544.986

Okay.

4545.186 - 4557.278 Ryan Callaghan

Right. And it's like, I mean, just think of all the conversations we've had about like the national park has got to end somewhere. You don't get a buffer or else just call it park or don't.

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