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The MeidasTouch Podcast

Inside Trump’s Pentagon Threat to Pope Leo XIV

09 Apr 2026

Transcription

Transcript generated automatically by AI and may contain errors.

Chapter 1: What are Pope Leo XIV's criticisms of Donald Trump?

0.031 - 27.697 Ben Meiselas

Pope Leo XIV is absolutely furious at Donald Trump and the Trump regime and their behavior. As we previously reported, Pope Leo has called off all visits, essentially, to the United States on the 250th. United States anniversary, July 4th, Pope Leo made a point that he will be in Lampedusa in Italy, spending his time showing compassion for the migrant community there.

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28.138 - 41.074 Ben Meiselas

And we're learning some additional details as Pope Leo XIV has been calling out Donald Trump and his despicable regime's imperialist and tactics of saying we're going to obliterate civilizations and everything is going to

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41.054 - 66.235 Ben Meiselas

war we're gonna obliterate you and destroy everything uh pope leo xiv has been calling that out and you know jd vance who converted to catholicism and pete hegseth who invokes god all the time pope leo xiv has been pretty much directing messages without necessarily saying their names but it's clear he's calling them out and so what the trump regime tried to do and this was a tactic

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66.215 - 85.962 Ben Meiselas

that Hitler did with the bishops right before Hitler engaged in the Holocaust right around that time is to threaten Pope Leo XIV and to threaten the Holy See with the United States military. And essentially, the same way the Trump regime was threatening to invade Greenland,

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85.942 - 103.217 Ben Meiselas

right behind the scenes what we're learning today is that the united states was making threats that suggested that they would use military force against the holy see against the vatican against pope leo xiv and they summoned pope leo xiv's Like, Ben, what are you talking about?

103.257 - 130.261 Ben Meiselas

Yes, they summoned Pope Leo XIV's top American diplomat to the Pentagon, which now calls itself unlawfully the Department of War, the Undersecretary of War, Elbridge Colby. invoked the Avignon Papacy, the period when the French crown used military force to bend the bishop of Rome to its will. And they said that we have the power.

130.281 - 152.235 Ben Meiselas

This is what the Trump regime said to Pope Leo XIV's top diplomat in the United States, that we have the military power to do whatever we want. Whatever we want, we will do in the world. And Pope Leo XIV, he needs to know that. So the Catholic Church has better take sides and they better take the right side.

152.696 - 162.574 Ben Meiselas

Now, this meeting that took place that I just referenced was in January and it followed Pope Leo XIV's speech, which was kind of a state of the world speech that he gives. And as

162.554 - 183.757 Ben Meiselas

Christopher Hale writes, in the speech that enraged Pete Hegseth and top Pentagon officials, Pope Leo XIV said, a diplomacy that promotes dialogue and seeks consensus among all parties is being replaced by a diplomacy based on force. War is back in vogue and a zeal for war is spreading.

Chapter 2: How did the Trump administration threaten the Vatican?

449.378 - 468.113 Unknown

Tens of thousands of sorties, refuelings, and strikes carried out under the protection of divine providence. A massive effort with miraculous protection. Dude44Bravo spoke for all of us. God is good.

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469.814 - 491.316 Ben Meiselas

Then you had J.D. Vance on the tarmac after trying to prop up Viktor Orban, Putin's puppet. J.D. Vance was saying that he doesn't even know who Cardinal Christophe Pierre is and has no clue about any of these people. And we don't know about the threats that were taking place by the Defense Department threatening essentially war.

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491.296 - 512.977 Ben Meiselas

threatening to attack and invade the Holy See, and go back to the Avignon Papacy in the 13th century. This is what J.D. Vance, I don't know, I don't know. Here, play this clip. X has been abuzz the last couple of days with the Free Press story saying that senior Pentagon officials in January, including Rich Colby, brought Cardinal Pierre into the Pentagon. Brought who?

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513.077 - 515.82 Ben Meiselas

Cardinal Christophe Pierre into the Pentagon.

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515.98 - 518.023 Unknown

I haven't seen this story, unfortunately.

518.043 - 530.009 Ben Meiselas

Essentially, the reporting by the Free Press is that they told him that the American military has a lot of might and they can do whatever they want and the church should get on its side. Does that message sound correct to you? Is that something you would sign off on?

530.29 - 535.377 Unknown

So, one, with no disrespect to the Cardinal, I don't know who Cardinal Christophe Pierre is.

536.279 - 538.141 Ben Meiselas

He's the ambassador to the Holy See in the U.S.

538.161 - 556.808 Unknown

Oh, okay, okay. I've met him before. Sorry, I just didn't remember the name. I've never seen this reporting. I'd like to actually talk to Cardinal Christophe Pierre and, frankly, to our people to figure out what actually happened. I think it's always a bad idea to offer an opinion on stories that are unconfirmed and uncorroborated, so I'm not going to do that.

Chapter 3: What was the significance of the Avignon Papacy in this context?

677.272 - 688.925 Christopher Hale

He is a diplomat, but actually directly to the Pentagon, which is strange in itself. And then while he was there at the Pentagon, there was a meeting with the Undersecretary of State.

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689.346 - 712.256 Christopher Hale

And in this meeting, it suggested that Cardinal Christophe Pierre, that they were upset with Pope Leo XIV's early January address to the Vatican, to the diplomatic corps of the Holy See, where he said that war is back in vogue. There is a zeal for war, and that the rule of law regarding the territory of nations have been violated.

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712.737 - 736.698 Christopher Hale

Mind you, this speech took place days after Trump's invasion of Venezuela. So the administration was correct to read this as a critique of their policy, obviously global in nature, but yes, of what they had done in Venezuela and what they were threatening at that point to do in Greenland and what they've done now in Iran just months later. So when he came in, it was tense.

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737.82 - 763.24 Christopher Hale

And one of the diplomats suggested, brought up the Avignon Papacy, which you mentioned earlier. For your readers, the Avignon Papacy was this 14th century phenomenon where the French regime was upset with the papacy. So not only did they influence the papacy, they kidnapped the pope. Pope Boniface, they kidnapped and in fact killed him, murdered him.

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763.681 - 786.068 Christopher Hale

And so it was a stunning suggestion to be made to bring up in this meeting. And Cardinal Christophe Pierre from our sourcing takes this information back to the Holy See, back to the Vatican. And there have been discussions about Pope Leo XIV coming to the United States this year. And that was put on ice. And from what I can understand, it's been put on ice indefinitely.

787.051 - 796.618 Christopher Hale

There's some thoughts that he might come here in 2027. I honestly do not think we'll see Pope Leo in the United States until after Donald Trump leaves the presidency.

797.105 - 823.315 Ben Meiselas

You know, when he's picking to go to Lampedusa on July 4th, that's the island right by Italy, which is known as a hub of migration, which is kind of used there in Italy by politicians and other anti-immigrant groups over there as kind of the way certain locations in the southern border here in the United States are, you know, and it's kind of this

823.295 - 848.492 Ben Meiselas

uh been used to kind of attack migrants and i think a message is being sent that on your july 4th 250th anniversary day when jd vance hand delivered that letter during the visit uh to rome uh i remember the video that you shared with it as well of pope leo the 14th like kind of awkward encounter wasn't it he looked at an awkward encounter Yeah. Talk to us about that.

848.532 - 853.497 Ben Meiselas

And then basically rejecting the visit. I mean, I'm not I'm not sure. Talk to us about that.

Chapter 4: How has Pope Leo XIV responded to the threats from Trump?

887.183 - 910.282 Christopher Hale

And Leo takes the letter, and it's an awkward encounter. maybe you could drop in the show notes, but he puts the letter away and says, I'll take a look at that later. But there was talk about the Pope coming for the 250th anniversary. But after this meeting that occurred, that was taken off the table. And you spoke about Lampedusa.

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910.642 - 933.986 Christopher Hale

And one of the things that you talked about it being a point of entry, it's a point of entry between North Africa and the Mediterranean Sea and Italy and Europe. But it's also a very poignant point in the history of the Catholic Church. Pope Francis, that was his first trip outside of Rome. He went there in July of 2013 and he said that very famous homily.

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934.026 - 951.354 Christopher Hale

He said, We are a people who have forgotten how to weep for the sufferings of others. So he's doing two things. He's going, he's making a pointed statement to be there on the 4th of July, and he's also honoring his predecessor, who notably said that Donald Trump isn't Christian.

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951.835 - 976.236 Christopher Hale

He said that in response to Donald Trump's 2016 campaign, his efforts to build the wall, which of course was what he ran on, in 2016. So it's this dual message. But I think maybe what's maybe not known to your listeners is that he's actually going to speak to the United States. He's received a Liberty Medal Award from Philadelphia, the city of Philadelphia.

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976.216 - 994.663 Christopher Hale

On July 3rd, if you go and look through those, the previous recipients of them, they're progressive heroes and icons for the Asians. So he's going to have a message for the United States, albeit it will be mobile, it will be remote on July 3rd, and then he'll be in Lampedusa on July 4th.

994.643 - 1017.848 Christopher Hale

I am very excited for the front page of the newspaper, above the fold, below the fold, because truly, Leo will offer counter-messaging to what Donald Trump and J.D. Benson, what dribble they might offer those days. He's smart. This man consumes media. He consumes English media. He understands how to play the media in the United States. He understands how it works.

1018.329 - 1022.153 Christopher Hale

And what I find fascinating is that when Leo speaks

Chapter 5: What message did Pope Leo XIV convey about war and peace?

1022.133 - 1041.066 Christopher Hale

When he wants to say something important, he says it in English. And for Catholics, we know, we associate the man in the white with being very good at Italian, pretty good at Spanish, and not very good at English. This is the history of the papacy. It's remarkable to hear a pope speak fluent, natural, native English.

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1041.287 - 1045.474 Christopher Hale

And when he wants to say something important, he says it in English, and it gets picked up here.

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1046.028 - 1067.867 Ben Meiselas

You know, and finally, you've been reporting how Pope Leo XIV has been able to successfully organize, whether it's cardinals, bishops, all different ranks of the cloth of people helping migrants here. And that's been a major effort. Even people who at first

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1067.847 - 1096.268 Ben Meiselas

based on some of their background you think may not have been uh so publicly uh out there you know in in support of being on the front lines to help migrants um you know i think we've seen uh this this effort i mean you you've covered these massive meetings both in the united states and abroad you know of all these people in the catholic church and you know you you've made it clear that

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1096.248 - 1126.229 Ben Meiselas

yes but behind all of this is actually pope leo xiv and so before we go talk to us about just the broader resistance efforts and how strong they've been and the real uh the fact that the trump regime is truly intimidated by this and it does have this historical parallel to Hitler being intimidated by not being able to break the church and trying to figure out how to maneuver there.

1126.329 - 1137.848 Ben Meiselas

Whether it's being done because of that playbook or that's just an authoritarian thinking of dealing with the church, there are parallels there as well. So maybe combine those two concepts before we go.

1137.828 - 1163.511 Christopher Hale

Well, I think the first thing I know is that I'm from Tennessee. In MAGA country throughout this nation, the Catholic Church is leading the resistance to Donald Trump. You had nuns who marched in Georgia. You had a bishop in Arkansas compare Trump's actions to the Holocaust, to Nazi Germany. You have here in Tennessee, you have the bishops standing up against deportation.

1163.571 - 1187.941 Christopher Hale

So I think in MAGA country, you have the church being a bulwark. Remarkably, a bulwark against the Trump administration and the progressives across the country are seeing the church as something to look up to. I think the final thing I will say is I think that Pope Francis himself was leading on these issues, but he did have resistance among the hierarchy in the United States.

1188.242 - 1203.402 Christopher Hale

What they often would do is they would reduce Francis to being Argentinian. They would say, oh, the man from Buenos Aires, he doesn't understand life here in the United States. And so I think a lot of the bishops thought, the conservative bishops thought, we'll just wait for the next pope.

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