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Chapter 1: What is discussed at the start of this section?
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Good evening, little masters, and welcome to episode 410 of the Prancing Pony podcast, where no doubt more could have been wrung from Matt by torture.
You're still not going to know what a Baggins is. I'll put it that way. All right. You're not going to know. No. Folks, pull up a bench in the common room and join us. I'm Matt, the Nerd of the Rings, and I'm here with the man of the West who made a very small and natural heir, Alan Sisto. You mean inviting you back?
Probably, yeah. Folks, join us as we get a closer look at Aragorn's unpleasant journey as we continue our four-part look at the hunt for the ring from Unfinished Tales.
Folks, no matter whether you came to Middle-Earth through the books, the films, the TV show, or something else, each of you is welcome here in our common room. The Prancing Pony podcast continues in our 10th season of reading and talking our way through Middle-Earth with conversations, digressions, and even speculations.
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Chapter 2: What insights do we gain about Gollum and Sauron's relationship?
Like I got to play it. I had never played it before, played it on the big fancy table. Oh yeah. It's got some great strategy that, that works in the elements of the story and the characters.
I'm going to need a bigger studio rings. Yeah.
That sounds like a good one. That must have been fun. Your interviews are always intriguing, and I'm glad that you get a chance to talk to some of these incredible folks.
Yeah. And it was fun because it was up in Minnesota, so I got to check another ballpark off my list. I went to a Twins game.
You got to go to the Twin Cities. Yeah. Right on. Well, one other thing, speaking of baseball, when you're on the show with me, people expect a few more sports references and maybe a few less Babylon 5 or 80s music references. You've been branching out a bit, right? You're not just the nerd of the rings anymore. You're the nerd of the diamond, the nerd of the hardwood, even the nerd of the ice.
Talk to me about some of your sports stuff with a brief apology to our non-sport viewing listeners.
Yeah, so I love the nerd of the diamond hardwood and ice there. Yeah, people who follow me on Twitter or Instagram will notice I occasionally post about my sports teams.
Usually it's gripes about refereeing during a Pacers game from what I've noticed.
Oh my gosh, don't even get me started on the finals. Don't even get me started on the finals.
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Chapter 3: How does the discussion shift to the characters' journeys?
I've always been a big fan.
Oh, that would be great. Yeah. That's good. That's got a good rhythm to it too. Yeah. Watch him coming out to that music. I wouldn't want to bat against that.
Did you, did you catch, I know like we're, we're totally, we're, we're crossing over though. This is Lord of the Rings related at this point. So during the national championship game where IU beats Miami, I think it was.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. The, the IU band was playing the Isengard theme. They were playing a ton of Lord of the Rings stuff.
I think they were playing at least two or three different themes, but yeah, the Isengard theme kept popping up a lot.
Yeah.
Which is a great, great sound for a band. Yeah.
Another fun fact in that same, I'm just all over the place because I'm getting really excited of this crossover. I am too, actually. Last time I was at a Cubs game at Wrigley Field, which has been a few years ago now, I actually tweeted at the organist for the Cubs, like you should play some Lord of the Rings music.
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Chapter 4: What are the key themes in the lore of Middle-Earth explored here?
I was watching that game with rapt attention. But yeah, I remember thinking, that's so cool that we get Lord of the Rings music while we're watching the national championship game.
That is, yeah. Maybe he'll ask for it at the Raiders games.
There you go. You never know. Well, we're now done with the sports questions. Yeah, let's get it. Sorry. You can come back now. Come on back. All right. Matt, you and I have chatted about adaptations a lot over the years. And I don't just mean Rings of Power. I mean, we have obviously talked about that. But we've talked about War of the Rohirrim. We've talked about video game adaptations.
But let's talk a bit more. Or rather, you talk, I listen, because it's an interview. What is the one thing that you're most looking forward to for season three of The Rings of Power? And after you've answered that hard question, the easy one is what's the one thing you're most worried about?
Okay, so I would say a couple things that I'm looking forward to. One, I think that by necessity, Elendil will have a bigger role going forward. Oh, he's got to, doesn't he?
Whether that'll be season four or not, though, I don't know.
Yeah, I'm not 100% sure, but I mean, so the older Durin was killed off. Celebrimbor is killed off.
Yep.
Adar is killed off. So like three of the characters that were a fairly big focus of season two- are now gone so that's screen time that's available and I think I think Elendil is one that like I hope so and Gil-galad for that matter oh yeah the two of them need a lot more in the next two seasons before the final showdown with Sauron like that's mm-hmm
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Chapter 5: What new details are revealed about the Nazgûl's weaknesses?
So yeah, it's still, I still always say, but are you sure? Yeah. Well, let's go ahead and look at the cons because this is where we get a lot more detail in this version than we did in last week's.
I mean, sure, in manuscript A last week, we saw that so great was the terror that went with them, even invisible and unclad, that their coming forth might soon be perceived in their mission guessed by the wise. So already not exactly stealthy, right, Matt?
Right. Yeah.
Yeah.
here we're told something quite similar but it's even stronger because now we're told it's not just that the terror is great even when invisible and unclad the terror is actually greater in that case that's interesting yeah And it's also more amplified when they're all together.
So it's not even invisible. Like, oh, well, maybe they're not quite as scary. No, they're still pretty scary. It's that they're even more scary. Even more. So it's quite unstealthy.
Yes.
Really, this is not what you use if you're trying to be secretive about what you're doing.
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Chapter 6: Why are the Nazgûl afraid of water?
But the new information is what's interesting. And there are two bits in particular, though I should say right up front that neither of these drawbacks apply to the Witch King. He is just that good. That's right. He is the Witch King.
He is. The first is that unless they're all together, they're likely to wander off during the daytime. which is funny in and of itself is like their dogs, their dogs coming across squirrels or something. They just start wandering off.
Like you got to put them on a leash, but recall last week, the footnote that we read saying that Kamul was the one whose power was most confused and diminished by daylight.
Oh, and I do love this idea, but the second and actually more problematic concern is is that they're all terrified of water. So much so that except in dire need, and boy, do I want to know exactly what that means, they won't cross rivers except on a bridge.
The footnote here reminding us that only the Witch King and two others with the lure of the ring straight before them had dared to enter the river, talking about at the Grey Flood when they were going after Frodo. The rest were driven into the river by Glorfindel and Aragorn. Why are they afraid of water? What in the world? Right? What is the deal here? What do you think it is?
No, like I honestly don't know. I just immediately think when they do go after Frodo though, and the waters come rushing in, I'm like, it's like putting an arachnophobe in a room of spiders, you know?
I'm thinking Indiana Jones snakes. Why did it have to be snakes?
Yes. Like that did nothing to help that fear for sure.
Now it's baked in.
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Chapter 7: How does Sauron react to Gollum's capture?
Right? Yeah.
And maybe the ring was the thing that constituted dire need and drove two of them to follow. But I wonder what else would constitute dire need because you don't think of the Witch King as the kind of like a nice boss who is going to give you, you know, your vacation that you request, you know, every time. This is not a guy you want to work for.
And so I think dire need is anytime he tells you you have a dire need.
Anytime he says yes.
I don't care if you're afraid of the water. Of course, this whole time I'm, I'm thinking of them being afraid of the water. I'm thinking of the aliens from signs. Did you see signs?
Yes.
Oh yes, of course. Yeah. So it's like a, Swing away, Merrill. That's right. The Nazgul afraid of water.
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Chapter 8: What changes in Sauron's strategy are discussed?
Actually, I recently showed that movie to my kids and I won't. Oh, great movie. Yeah. I won't tell you what grade I was in when that movie came out. Oh, shush.
Grade? You were in a grade?
Wow, that hurts. On that note, at the end of all this, Sauron has to weigh two factors in using the ringwraiths. The inability for them to do this secretly, because everyone's going to know it's them, and the logistical problems about crossing the giant river that lies between them and the direction of the Shire.
Yeah.
Not to mention all the other smaller rivers, but especially the Anduin.
Yes, the Anduin. And these concerns gave Sauron enough pause that he waited a long time before dispatching the ringwraiths.
Yeah. We also learned that Sauron would not have believed that anyone other than Gollum and whoever, whatever Baggins was, would know about the ring. And this is interesting. We're even told Gollum didn't know who Gandalf was. Don't you know who I am? He's famous. Come on. That's right. Or that he was connected with Bilbo until after Gandalf questioned him in Thranduil's halls.
The footnote reminding us, of course, that he spoke of questioning Gollum during the Council of Elrond. So interesting. So Sauron thinks the existence of the ring is that secret, but why would Gollum and Baggins necessarily keep that knowledge to themselves? Like what... Yeah. Is he counting on the terrifying nature of the ring or like the beneficial invisibility?
Is he counting on that being the reason why these mortal ring bearers wouldn't tell anyone?
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