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The Rest Is Science

"A Grim Enemy For Reasons We Do Not Yet Comprehend"

11 May 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the significance of nitrogen in agriculture and warfare?

0.031 - 8.272 Hannah Fry

Welcome to The Rest of Science. I'm Hannah Fry. And I'm Michael Stevens. Okay, Michael, I want you to tell me who you think is the biggest villain in all of history.

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8.433 - 9.435 Michael Stevens

The biggest villain?

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15.708 - 39.194 Michael Stevens

This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK. treated the rest, the ancient viruses and stuff, as junk.

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39.214 - 49.431 Hannah Fry

But now we know that that hidden majority, sometimes called the dark genome, influences how our biology works and how diseases like cancer behave.

49.691 - 68.579 Michael Stevens

It's a reminder that progress rarely comes as a single breakthrough. It builds gradually. Cancer Research UK plays a central role in that progress, supporting decades of research into over 200 types of cancer, work that's helped double survival in the UK over the past 50 years.

68.8 - 79.515 Hannah Fry

For more information about Cancer Research UK, their research breakthroughs and how you can support them, visit cancerresearchuk.org forward slash the rest is science.

85.435 - 106.134 Michael Stevens

I'm going to choose to interpret this incorrectly. Do you know? And I'm going to say the answer is Watt Tyler, the leader of the 1381 Peasants Revolt. OK. He marched the peasants from Canterbury to London, demanding economic reforms, the end of the poll tax. And he was killed and didn't really achieve a whole lot. Doesn't sound like a bad guy, though, does he? No, no.

106.174 - 124.489 Michael Stevens

Well, villain didn't used to mean bad guy. It used to mean low born peasant rustic. Did it? And then because of the classes, right? It becomes, oh, are you poor or just bad? Same thing. So villain became a bad person. Wow. Yeah.

Chapter 2: How did Fritz Haber change the course of history?

742.402 - 742.864 Michael Stevens

Really?

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742.944 - 755.054 Hannah Fry

Which are part of its Pacific naval empire. It has those because they had bird poop on them. I did not know that. Right. That was it. They were looking for poop. Wow. Isn't that extraordinary? Well, yeah.

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755.394 - 774.856 Hannah Fry

There's this whole massive war that happened, the War of the Pacific between Bolivia and Chile, because Bolivia decided that they were going to impose, see if this resonates, a 10% tariff on any exports of bird poop. At which point Chile was like, no, thank you very much, and invaded. And as a result, Bolivia lost its entire coastline.

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775.616 - 778.62 Hannah Fry

And sort of there's still this ongoing fight about... Jeez, wow.

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778.94 - 793.202 Michael Stevens

You know, this is a lot of stuff, right? So, yeah, when you're at the beach and a seagull poops on you... You should be like, dude, countries used to be invaded for this stuff. People lost their lives for this stuff. People lost their lives. And I just got some for free.

793.222 - 800.415 Hannah Fry

Yeah. Well, don't people say it's lucky to have a bird poo on you? That should be why. Hey, £5.50. Yeah.

800.395 - 831.075 Michael Stevens

Yeah. Yeah. I can eat tomorrow. But this is this is really, really significant that we had reached a point where to keep the human population thriving and growing was impossible. Like a any other species would have just reached that ceiling and died off. Yeah. Down to a smaller population. But humans, as our story goes, always find a way. Always find a way. Always find a way.

831.156 - 844.932 Hannah Fry

Yeah. And part of the reason why we found a way is because we knew that there was nitrogen literally everywhere. Like you can't, you know, most of the things, breathe in, loads of nitrogen. Breathe in, loads of nitrogen. You're so...

844.912 - 869.357 Hannah Fry

literally surrounded by this stuff and we as a species found a way to bend the earth to our will and to say give it up yeah and not just we as a species the villain slash hero of our story Fritz Haber was the person who managed to do this how did he do it? Okay, so the thing is, right, you've got this really strong chemical bond, right? This is 1900s, incidentally. He is German.

Chapter 3: What role did nitrogen fixation play in World War I?

1589.333 - 1593.54 Hannah Fry

During World War I. During World War I, or afterwards. Because nitrates...

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1593.52 - 1618.903 Hannah Fry

still form an extremely important part of explosives and it's really difficult to put a number on this but the number of people who've been killed by explosives involving nitrates that directly link back to this this kind of process is in the tens to hundreds of millions of people plus then if you add on the fact that if germany if the first world war hadn't gone on as long germany hadn't dug in as deep the treaty of versailles wouldn't have been as

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1618.883 - 1625.716 Michael Stevens

As perceived as painful by them, leading to certain political decisions and so on and so on.

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1625.957 - 1640.385 Hannah Fry

We're talking lots and lots of people. Now, OK, I think you could argue, right, in a certain sense, all of this is a little bit incidental, unintended consequences, sort of, you know, butterfly effect of the things that he was doing.

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1640.365 - 1658.317 Hannah Fry

So just so you don't feel too bad about Fritz Haber, I also want to tell you about the other chemistry work that he was doing at the time, because this is like where stuff gets proper nasty, because he is also essentially the father of chemical warfare. And we're going to be talking about that after the break.

1662.645 - 1662.745

Music

1669.576 - 1676.185 Hannah Fry

This episode is brought to you by Cancer Research UK.

1676.446 - 1692.208 Michael Stevens

We often think of beating cancer as treatment, but imagine stopping it before it begins. After years of work, Cancer Research UK scientists are launching a clinical trial of Lungvax, the first vaccine designed to prevent lung cancer.

1692.188 - 1711.075 Hannah Fry

It builds on TRACERX, the world's largest cancer evolution study, which tracked lung cancer cells over many years to uncover the disease's earliest warning signs. Lungvax is designed to train the immune system to spot these signs early on, destroying faulty cells before cancer develops.

Chapter 4: How did Haber's discoveries lead to the development of chemical weapons?

2445.861 - 2470.542 Michael Stevens

OK, it just is. And then what we need to do is both react to, but even better, prepare for the consequences. We certainly can't come in and say, you know, you've got to stop investigating this. You've got to stop being curious about this because of what could happen. But we do need to take on the responsibility and become even more curious to really think about what is it that we're doing?

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2470.622 - 2473.145 Michael Stevens

What will the future think about what we're doing?

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2473.306 - 2479.474 Hannah Fry

Yeah, I think that's a really cool way to think of it. The ultimate cure is more curiosity.

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2479.514 - 2495.018 Michael Stevens

Exactly. It's not stopping it. It's, oh, self-driving cars. How are they going to decide between hitting a grandma or a child? And it's like, well, you know, let's work on that. Mm-hmm. But let's not stop the development of what could really help so many people.

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2495.078 - 2500.348 Hannah Fry

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, we hope that we've helped you with this podcast.

2500.388 - 2500.709 Michael Stevens

Yeah.

2501.631 - 2507.322 Hannah Fry

It's sort of a bit of a depressing story. I sort of want to do a bit of a jolly, happy, clappy ending, but there isn't one.

2507.302 - 2523.086 Michael Stevens

But I think you're right. I think sometimes the depression is inspirational. And so, yeah, stay curious, become more curious. And as always, you can reach out to us at therestisscienceatgoalhanger.com. We'd love to hear from you.

2523.286 - 2527.452 Hannah Fry

Yeah. Or leave us a comment wherever you are getting this podcast. And we'll see you next week.

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