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The Shit No One Tells You About Writing

May Bonus Episode

25 May 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?

0.655 - 20.669 CeCe Lyra

Have you been sitting on the fence about signing up for the Beta Reader matchup? Or have you signed up before but haven't yet found your writing soulmates? The next matchup is the last one for the summer, so don't snooze on it. Get matched up with those writing in a similar genre and or time zone so they can critique your work as you critique theirs.

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21.07 - 42.154 CeCe Lyra

Your manuscript doesn't have to be complete to sign up for this 3,000 word evaluation. This particular matchup will be open to registrations from now until the 1st of June with the matchup emails going out on the 2nd of June. For more information and to register, go to BiancaMarie.com and go to the Beta Reader matchup page.

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45.256 - 65.07 Megan Abbott

What's up, everyone? This is Cece. So I recently grabbed lunch with an acquiring editor from HarperCollins who told me that the number of submissions she's been getting has nearly doubled. And I wasn't surprised at all because every agent and editor I know has been talking about how the volume of submission keeps increasing.

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65.05 - 86.653 Megan Abbott

So personally, that is a wonderful thing, because it's more reading for me, but it also means I have more chances of matching with authors. I consider it a privilege to review queries on Books with Hooks, and of course, in my submissions inbox. But at the same time, I talk to writers who tell me that they wish agents would read more than a few pages because...

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86.633 - 112.843 Megan Abbott

And I quote, my story gets better in chapter two. I have to be honest, this kills me. It's like me wanting chocolate chip cookies to have the nutritional value of kale. It's just not realistic. Like it or not, no agent, no acquiring editor is going to stick around to see if a submission gets better. It's not because we're mean. It's because we get dozens and dozens every day.

112.823 - 140.348 Megan Abbott

I know it's harsh, but ambitious writers embrace harsh realities. So here it goes. It's your job to make your opening pages irresistible, to make agents crave it, to make agents want to read more. That's why I'm so excited about my upcoming course, Starting It Right. How to begin your story in the best place and in the best way. I created this course after studying hundreds of books.

140.968 - 156.887 Megan Abbott

I've mapped out elements that are present in the beginning of all successful novels and memoirs. And I've designed checklists, actual checklists, that you can use to ensure that your story's beginning is seducing your reader.

156.867 - 175.129 Megan Abbott

we'll cover how to write a great first line different types of beginnings and how you can choose the best one the best place to start and the best way to start yes these are totally different things when it makes sense to add a prologue and when it doesn't how to frame your inciting incident in an appealing way

175.109 - 195.587 Megan Abbott

how to balance exposition and mystery, how to include context but not weigh it down with too much backstory, and what to do if your story has more than one POV or timeline. Most of all, I'm going to show you how to make readers want to turn to chapter two. Join me for this multi-day course designed to help you break through the noise.

Chapter 2: How does magical realism influence character development?

1274.65 - 1295.534 Stephen Rowley

And so, you know, if you think about it in that effect, then it doesn't have to be so overwhelming. I think people are like, I've got to set up jokes. I've got to set up, there needs to be a set up, set up punchline. You know, we're not writing sitcoms. In novel writing, humor can just be an interesting observation. It can be a strange setup like this is. It can be, you know, irony.

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1295.654 - 1318.647 Stephen Rowley

There's so many different tools we have to work some humor into our books and our writing. But I think it's appreciated by a reader too. I do think without that humor, my books would be too dark and daunting to pick up. And so I'm grateful for somehow I found a balance that seems to work for me and that also readers seem to appreciate.

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1319.403 - 1336.467 CeCe Lyra

Yeah, I really like the exploration of tenderness in humor and how a lot of male comics feel like it needs to be inappropriate and you need to say shitty things about people and, you know, pull them down. But comedy doesn't have to be that way. So it was a great take on that.

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1336.717 - 1360.665 Stephen Rowley

I do think that there is room to be riotously funny and also kind. You know, I hope the Gunkel books feel that way, which isn't to say that a character doesn't have a bad moment or that they don't lash out and feel bad about it afterwards. We don't have to write Pollyannas. I'm not saying that. But who humor is directed toward? You know, Patrick is never in the Gunkel book making fun of the kids.

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1361.046 - 1384.59 Stephen Rowley

You know, that would be punching down in a way. And there are so many people right now trying to seize power by standing on the necks of the most vulnerable around us. And those people don't need to be pointed at and laughed at. Those people need a hand lifted up. But it is our job to punch up. It is our job to mercilessly mock those trying to seize power in that way.

1384.791 - 1404.176 Stephen Rowley

And so it's just where humor is directed, I think. But I do always try to aim for kindness. in my humor, which there's an easy laugh to be had sometimes by making fun of somebody. It's harder to surprise a reader with a different take that they may not have thought of themselves.

1404.356 - 1410.565 Stephen Rowley

But I think it just challenges us to work a little harder, but it hopefully makes for a more kind and empathetic world.

1411.422 - 1415.268 CeCe Lyra

Yeah, true. But I did enjoy the punching up at Elon Musk. I'm not going to lie.

1415.328 - 1420.477 Stephen Rowley

I love that description. His fair game.

Chapter 3: What themes of grief and reinvention are explored in the novel?

1683.532 - 1709.168 CeCe Lyra

I cried on a plane was while I was reading Lily and the Octopus and my Dachshund had just passed away and this poor flight attendant had to like come and check on me and last time was when my mom was sick and I was going to South Africa but I feel like there's so many people who can just relate to that to being in a public space whether it's a plane wherever and just crying and you just can't stop and there's someone you can't stop it you're trying so hard to control yourself and to

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1709.148 - 1732.945 Stephen Rowley

and to hold on to some dignity and you can't stop it and i think flight attendants do deal with that um a lot but what a full circle moment that it was lily in the aquas i'm probably i've heard from several people read it on planes and i hope i'm responsible for people getting some free drinks or something as an apology for making you cry in public i think i did get a wine for it so just yes success

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1733.802 - 1754.262 CeCe Lyra

Oh, Stephen, we've run out of time. It is always such a joy to chat with you. For our listeners, we are linking to Take Me With You on our bookshop.org affiliate page. If you buy the book there, you support an independent bookstore and the podcast at the same time. Go out, get the book. Again, masterclass in comedic writing and emotionality and so many other things.

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1754.282 - 1755.625 CeCe Lyra

Thanks for joining us, Stephen.

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1755.605 - 1765.294 Stephen Rowley

Thank you. I recommend the podcast to everyone. I met Cece at the Kauai Writers Conference. Tell Carly I'm coming for her. But I love chatting with you always. So thank you for having me.

1765.696 - 1783.889 Unknown

Thanks, Stephen. Travel season is almost here. I've got my packing list and I'm ready to go. We just got back from a family weekend trip to Quebec to work on our French. Up next, a summer trip to Germany to introduce the kids to the Alps and hear a new language. Plus our 10th anniversary trip to Italy later this year. I love hearing my Italian husband speak Italian.

1784.009 - 1800.136 Unknown

If you have travel coming up, join me in using Rosetta Stone to learn some local languages. There's something about summer that just feels like travel. Shake off the winter and get ready to move. Learning a new language is the perfect way to channel that momentum into a skill that opens up the world. Rosetta Stone has been a trusted leader in language learning for over 30 years.

1800.216 - 1813.658 Unknown

Their immersive, intuitive methods help you naturally absorb your new language without memorizing random vocabulary lists or relying on translations. Instead, you learn by connecting words, visuals, and meaning in context, the way language is meant to be learned.

1813.638 - 1825.537 Unknown

Working in the publishing business means my days are often packed with meetings and manuscripts, but I love how simple these lessons are to fit into my schedule. Whether I have five minutes between emails or an hour on the weekend, I can access my lessons from my desktop or the mobile app.

Chapter 4: How does humor relate to emotional truth in storytelling?

3163.358 - 3184.552 Megan Abbott

I'm always worried about being maybe discouraged or thrown. So I think that's a big thing for me. It works for you. And listen, I don't know if you've ever read The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. He describes, it's a beautiful book. It's a meditation. I know of it. And I know his podcast where he talks about it some. You would love the book, I promise.

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3185.313 - 3193.864 Megan Abbott

He describes that one of the most important things you have to do as an artist, and then in creation, and it goes for writers, I'm sure, is knowing when you're in the

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3193.844 - 3221.893 Megan Abbott

cocoon phase like it's not meant to be shared you know like you have so much in the tank because you've read all these great books and you've studied all these great books and you've lived a full life and you've done research and you've thought about your character like you have so much in the tank that you're like i'm living with my own world and then you know the time you know sharing it with you obviously and knowing the difference between the two is one of those like wisdom things that you really need as an author because if you do it too soon you're right like it could lead to discouragement i love that

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3221.873 - 3241.619 Megan Abbott

Yes. No, I like that cocoon metaphor. I think that's perfect because I think that is sort of one of the dangers. And I often think that in writing workshops can be, especially because they can be very critical of writers, can be very critical of other writers that, you know, and can damage you in that nascent stage, you know, when everything feels very tender.

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3241.639 - 3263.46 Megan Abbott

Because a lot of the stuff you will figure out yourself, the longer you you work with the material. And then once you have your first reader, whoever they are, but, but it would, you know, I, I like a fit. I don't even send a partial, so I'm really, I'm extreme, but yeah. Do you outline at all? You mentioned that you figure it out before going. Is it an outline? How do you do it?

3263.62 - 3288.689 Megan Abbott

It's not an outline. I do a lot of screenwriting, and I always outline the screenwriting, but I never outline it. But I do really know the three acts, so to speak. And I know the ending. I just don't know. a lot of the in between. And then once I'm in towards the middle of the book, you know, the messy middle, I do start to plot out beats, you know, like things I still need to do.

3289.089 - 3307.045 Megan Abbott

And then it becomes a little closer to an outline. I think it's closer to what I, what they would call on TV, a beat sheet, which is like, these things need to happen. I, you know, I need to get to these things. And that's, that's really just to rescue you from that part in the middle of the book, where I think a lot of writers, myself,

3307.362 - 3332.593 Megan Abbott

included feel a little lost in the sauce as they say so I like that I really like that I mean you've been doing this for a long time so obviously it works and you've had tremendous success is there something about being a writer that you feel has changed since you started remind me when your first book was published yes oh my gosh 2005 so it's been 20 over 20 years yeah yeah yeah and

3332.573 - 3346.919 Megan Abbott

As you know, but you're too young to know a lot of this, but the business changes. I think we're the same age. Okay, so you know the business publishing changes every five years or so in dramatic ways.

Chapter 5: What insights does the author share about writing suspense novels?

3837.288 - 3851.847 Megan Abbott

when we were in the scene with other people, you know, I felt that way with the sisters. I think that's really true. I think because they also talk so much about their childhood together, you know, you have a sense of their experiences of it and you, you get them for that reason.

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3852.027 - 3872.805 Megan Abbott

And Pam's, you know, daughter, and you have different perspectives on them that make, make sure they're three dimensional and that you can feel an intimacy. I think that's, that's very true. That's a good point. Okay. So are you able to tell us what you're working on next? Is it too early? Like there's no pressure to share, but you know, our listeners are huge fans like I am too. Yes.

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3872.945 - 3884.46 Megan Abbott

Well, I just turned it in. So, yeah. So yes, it'll be coming out, I guess sometime next year. And it's, it's the story of, I don't have a good elevator pitch for it yet, but loosely.

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3884.64 - 3884.86 Stephen Rowley

It's good.

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3884.88 - 3887.524 Megan Abbott

Our listeners will see the Megan Abbott struggle.

3887.584 - 3889.366 Stephen Rowley

See, you'll get to see, you'll understand.

3889.426 - 3915.639 Megan Abbott

It's the hardest part. Yes. It's about a town that other people feel is cursed because there's a series of calamities that befall all the young people in the town. And no one can figure out how to break the curse. So it's... It's it's inspired by a real life story as well. And it's it's different and yet the same would be what I would say.

3916.039 - 3935.9 Megan Abbott

It's similar to my past books in that I'm dealing with teenage girls again, in large part, but it's a little different because I've dealt with something like that, like this sort of larger story. you know, once you feel you're cursed, you're cursed, right? You know, it's sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Because your belief is what powers the curse. Exactly, exactly.

3935.96 - 3962.908 Megan Abbott

So the whole town is sort of under the sway of this and try, like, how do we escape it? Where's the town? Can you share? It's an unnamed location, which... But like New England, Midwest? You know, I really wanted the reader to be be able to plug in their town. So I try to keep it as big as possible, but it is a small town. It's a small town, only, you know, 20,000 people. So dealing with, uh,

Chapter 6: How does the conversation address the evolution of female characters?

4111.743 - 4115.628 CeCe Lyra

Yeah, more than four. Exactly. For now, let's kick off the first one.

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4115.708 - 4134.27 Bianca Marais

Here you go. I've been an avid listener for a long time and love your comp segments. Thanks in advance for your help with finding comps for my YA 80s novel. My name is Andromeda, whose horse girl protagonist is dealing with the aftermath of her twin brother's drunk driving accident. Sixteen-year-old Andromeda, Andy, Summers, is marked as an outcast.

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4134.351 - 4152.209 Bianca Marais

The whispers that follow her in the school hallways are hard enough, but being the only Jewish girl in her tiny Indiana hometown and having her twin brother, Leo, charged with homicide solidifies her place as pariah. Her only solace is her beloved horse, Comet. When she rides him, she's no longer chained to her reputation. She imagines that she's soaring on the back of Pegasus.

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4152.65 - 4167.546 Bianca Marais

When the rodeo comes to town, inspiration for the jackpot strikes. But after the space shuttle Challenger explodes, can she ever forgive her twin brother for the wreck he caused? The book is a reimagining of the Andromeda myth in which the heroine rescues herself, told in a dual timeline with romantic elements.

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4168.027 - 4173.795 Bianca Marais

One comp I've thought of is Dear Medusa, and another is I Dream of Space, but neither is quite right for my story. Thanks again for your help.

4175.017 - 4204.216 Unknown

Hi, Wendy. So I like the comps that you've suggested. I think Dear Medusa... is a good one because it's a serious book about real teen struggles and it's recent and it's not too big. The Medusa Andromeda connection, I think makes sense and is intuitive and And I like I Dream of Space, too, because of that 80s setting, the discussion of the Challenger explosion, the household struggles.

4204.636 - 4227.02 Unknown

That's middle grade, but I do think that there's some crossover appeal. I'm never too bothered by crossover between middle grade and YA or YA and adult. I will add the book When the World Tips Over by Jandy Nelson. And I thought about Jandy Nelson immediately because she writes... the sort of heart tugging YA novels. And she deals particularly well with siblings.

4227.601 - 4248.552 Unknown

I'll Give You the Sun is her most famous and it is my favorite of hers. And it's about siblings, but it's too old, I think. And it's been made into a movie, so maybe too big. But When the World Tips Over is her most recent. It's 2024, I think it was recent. And it also has siblings and family drama in it. It is not a,

4248.802 - 4263.563 Unknown

mythological re-imagining, but it does have some inventive and fantastical elements to it that might resonate a little. So I think the two that you have make sense to me. And I would add, maybe look at Jandy Nelson.

Chapter 7: What are the challenges of writing in a genre like crime fiction?

5139.479 - 5140.48 Megan Abbott

I hope to see you there.

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