This week's podcast features Patrick in conversation with journalist and broadcaster John Humphrys. Patrick and John have known each other for more than 30 years, initially through John's involvement with organic dairy farming in West Wales, during which time they have had an ongoing dialogue, both public and private, about the need for changing our food systems and the reasons why it isn't happening fast enough. Themes explored during the conversation include – why John believes only a catastrophe will provide enough motivation to persuade people to pay more for sustainable food, how well the supermarkets have performed during the Covid emergency, where John Humphrys does his food shopping, why policy makers are unlikely to introduce the polluter pays principle. Over the course of the conversation they debate whether the sustainable food movement has been successful along with how the food system has coped with coronavirus and what it will take for people to question where their food comes from more rigorously.

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.

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