The Telepathy Tapes
Talk Tracks Ep 8: The Skeptic Who Couldn’t Debunk The Telepathy Tapes
Sun, 27 Apr 2025
In this episode of The Talk Tracks, we meet Becca Cramer—nuclear engineer, mother of two, and self-proclaimed skeptic—who set out to disprove the claims made in The Telepathy Tapes. What began as a rigorous attempt to debunk the series transformed into a months-long investigation that challenged her worldview. Motivated by scientific integrity, Becca combed through over 100 peer-reviewed studies, interviewed experts across fields, and meticulously examined the most common criticisms, including the infamous “ideomotor effect” or "oujia board" effect. But as she dug deeper, she found that many long-held assumptions about spelling, communication, and telepathy didn’t hold up under scrutiny. In a conversation with Telepathy Tapes coordinator Katherine Ellis, Becca shares the “aha” moments that shifted her thinking, the flawed science behind Clever Hans-style dismissals, and how the skepticism that fueled her investigation ultimately opened the door to a more expansive truth. This episode is a powerful reminder: true skepticism isn’t about cynicism—it’s about inquiry, curiosity, and the willingness to evolve in the face of new evidence. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices
Chapter 1: Who is Becca Kramer and why did she investigate The Telepathy Tapes?
All right, Katherine, take it away. Becca, thank you so much for doing this and being on the podcast. I would love it if you could just briefly introduce yourself and give us a little bit of your background.
Yeah, absolutely. Hi, I'm Becca Kramer, actually an engineer, nuclear engineer by training. But right now I'm a mom of two little kids and a writer. So I was actually doing research for a book. And that's kind of how I stumbled into all of this.
Chapter 2: What motivated Becca's skeptical investigation into telepathy claims?
So Becca hears the telepathy tapes, and she becomes obsessed with reconciling the unbelievable claims she was hearing with the concrete world. And she really, really dove into the research in many ways. It was like she was doing an extensive fact-checking on Kai and the families.
So it's been several months in the work, over a hundred peer-reviewed studies read, several books. I've talked to several experts in different industries. It's been quite the journey. So for me, I'm such a diehard skeptic and truth be told, like annoying atheist is kind of how I came into this. But I have been working on that side of myself.
I think your first email was like, I listened to the telepathy tapes and I couldn't stop thinking that I need to prove it wrong. Or your whole goal was... To prove that Akil was not using telepathy to type, to communicate, to spell, to communicate. But did you start out not believing or how did the telepathy tapes impact you when you first heard them?
I was feeling really inspired by the tapes. And I remember thinking, how has this not been like on CNN? Like we've... proven freaking telepathy people how is this not just what everyone's talking about it's all i get to talk about i mean i was recommending the podcast to everyone like this is the most clear-cut you know captured footage of any kind of psi phenomena that i'd ever heard of
So I was so interested. So when I hadn't seen it, I just hadn't really thought much about it. And then I saw that it had been, you know, widely debunked by specialists and was just shocked. But it had been a couple months since I had listened to it. So I was like, okay, maybe I just was really wanting something to be out there. But I couldn't move past it. So I re-listened to the tapes.
The re-listening was such a different experience after reading what experts were saying. And since it's audio only, you don't see them communicating. So you don't know how... I mean, crazy it is to say that they're communicating through their parents. So it just seemed, it was just, it was heartbreaking and I was almost going to turn it off.
And then I hear Katie mention how Houston always finds what she hides.
physically he goes and finds it and i was like that has nothing to do with how they're communicating and so it's just like little crumbs so i kept listening it's just little crumbs like that and then i you know you know get my engineering hat on and i take notes listen to the whole thing watch the videos and yeah seeing akil reading his mother's mind manisha from the other room There's no way.
And I was like, couldn't believe too that experts were aware of this and were still saying there's a perfectly reasonable scientific explanation for how this is occurring. So I was like, all right, I'm going to prove Akil's not reading his mother's mind. And that's kind of what I set out to do. That's how it started. And then it just kind of It was so bizarre.
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Chapter 3: What is the ideomotor effect and how does it relate to facilitated communication?
Regardless of what that information is, if it's to select or move a little over, down, whatever, one bit. To get them to a letter, it would require five bits of information. That's just impossible. That's like...
superhuman superhuman cueing and superhuman sensing but why are scientists so comfortable with these assumptions and that's what really kept me coming back like if if this is true ideomotor effect is the most fascinating thing happening in science right now because that's crazy Right. So that's kind of where I had my other eureka moments.
So this is while I was in a down moment thinking maybe this isn't happening. And I'm trying to learn more just about spellers in general. And I watch the documentary Tell Them You Love Me. Are you familiar?
Yeah, I've seen it.
What this led me to find is they show footage of the tests that they use to prove that the communications invalid. So the double blind. Yes. So they're the double blind. They call message passing tests. And it's this young girl, Betsy, and her partner. They're sitting on a couch next to each other. Betsy appears calm.
The facilitator next to her is not touching her, not controlling her arm or her hand. and they're using a letter board. They show Betsy and the facilitator a picture of a key, and Betsy on her own points to the letters K-E-Y spells key. But then they show them a picture. I can't remember what the pictures are, but assume the facilitator sees a dog, Betsy sees a cat, Betsy writes D-O-G.
She writes dogs. She writes what the facilitator saw. But watching it on the film, Betsy, one, is barely even looking at the board, which after hearing Akil say that he can see through his mother's eyes made a little more sense. What if she's using telepathy and that's how she can so effectively type what her facilitator sees? And that would make sense.
So then it was like, holy crap, what's happening? So I just start going through all the studies. There's like 40, like almost exactly 40 studies analyzing. They're considered the robust studies of facilitated communication because they include these double blind tests, these message passing tests.
All of these message passing tests involve showing the facilitator something or asking the facilitator something and then asking the non-speaker something else. It's actually like a perfect test for telepathy, you could argue. So I was like, oh, well, that's not going to help me disprove Akil reading his mom's mind. So I was like, I can't use any of that in this research.
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Chapter 4: Why does Becca challenge the scientific explanations dismissing telepathy?
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Chapter 5: How do double-blind message passing tests support or challenge telepathy claims?
Chapter 6: What are the limitations of the ideomotor effect in explaining non-speaker communication?
Chapter 7: How does skepticism paired with openness lead to new insights about telepathy?
To be confronted with evidence you don't expect, how science sometimes fails to ask the right questions, and why some phenomena may not be explainable by the frameworks we've relied on. This conversation is a reminder that skepticism, when paired with humility and openness, can become a bridge to the truth.
All right, Katherine, take it away. Becca, thank you so much for doing this and being on the podcast. I would love it if you could just briefly introduce yourself and give us a little bit of your background.
Yeah, absolutely. Hi, I'm Becca Kramer, actually an engineer, nuclear engineer by training. But right now I'm a mom of two little kids and a writer. So I was actually doing research for a book. And that's kind of how I stumbled into all of this.
So Becca hears the telepathy tapes, and she becomes obsessed with reconciling the unbelievable claims she was hearing with the concrete world. And she really, really dove into the research in many ways. It was like she was doing an extensive fact-checking on Kai and the families.
So it's been several months in the work, over a hundred peer-reviewed studies read, several books. I've talked to several experts in different industries. It's been quite the journey. So for me, I'm such a diehard skeptic and truth be told, like annoying atheist is kind of how I came into this. But I have been working on that side of myself.
I think your first email was like, I listened to the telepathy tapes and I couldn't stop thinking that I need to prove it wrong. Or your whole goal was... To prove that Akil was not using telepathy to type, to communicate, to spell, to communicate. But did you start out not believing or how did the telepathy tapes impact you when you first heard them?
I was feeling really inspired by the tapes. And I remember thinking, how has this not been like on CNN? Like we've... proven freaking telepathy people how is this not just what everyone's talking about it's all i get to talk about i mean i was recommending the podcast to everyone like this is the most clear-cut you know captured footage of any kind of psi phenomena that i'd ever heard of
So I was so interested. So when I hadn't seen it, I just hadn't really thought much about it. And then I saw that it had been, you know, widely debunked by specialists and was just shocked. But it had been a couple months since I had listened to it. So I was like, okay, maybe I just was really wanting something to be out there. But I couldn't move past it. So I re-listened to the tapes.
The re-listening was such a different experience after reading what experts were saying. And since it's audio only, you don't see them communicating. So you don't know how... I mean, crazy it is to say that they're communicating through their parents. So it just seemed, it was just, it was heartbreaking and I was almost going to turn it off.
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Chapter 8: What are the key “aha” moments that shifted Becca's thinking during her research?
Once you find the right doctor, you can see their actual appointment openings. Choose a time slot that works for you and click to instantly book a visit. It gives me a huge peace of mind, and I recommend it for all of you as well. So stop putting off those doctor appointments and go to ZocDoc.com slash tapes to find and instantly book a top-rated doctor today.
That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash tapes. ZocDoc.com slash tapes. Music We've all set health goals, whether it be losing weight or exercising more or eating better. But without a plan, at least for me, they often fade. That's where Prolon comes in. It's a five-day fasting-mimicking diet that gives you a science-backed, structured approach to stay on track and see real results.
And now they're upping their game with the next-gen five-day program. delivering the same science-backed benefits in a cleaner, more convenient, and more flavorful format. Prolon is a plant-based nutrition program featuring soups, snacks, and beverages designed to nourish the body while keeping it in a fasting state, triggering cellular rejuvenation and renewal.
NextGen builds on the original Prolon with 100% organic soups and teas, a richer taste and ready-to-eat meals. It was developed over decades at USC's Longevity Institute and backed by top U.S. medical centers. Prolon has been shown to support biological age reduction, Metabolic health, skin appearance, fat loss, and energy.
I was wanting to try something like this, and I loved it because it was so easy. Each order of Prolon's five-day program comes with five boxes labeled by day so you know what to eat every single day. It's convenient, backed by Nobel-winning science, and it works. For a limited time, you can be the first in line to experience the new NextGen at Special Savings.
Prolon is offering the Telepathy Tapes listeners 15% off site-wide plus a $40 bonus gift when you subscribe to their five-day program. Just visit ProlonLife.com slash tapes. That's P-R-O-L-O-N-L-I-F-E. ProlonLife.com slash tapes to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. ProlonLife.com slash tapes. Do you ever have those days when you're doing everything right?
Eating clean, getting your steps in, trying to keep it all together, but something still feels off? The kind of off that sleep or exercise can't fix? Yeah, same. Turns out, sometimes it's not stress, it's actually hormones. And once I started paying attention to that, things started to shift a little. That's where Happy Mammoth comes in.
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