Kastrup vs. Vervaeke: Mind Upload and the Shadow (Round 2 Debate)

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Previously titled “Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke [Round 2] Theolocution on Mind Upload, Shadow Integration, and Consciousness” — renamed by the publisher on Aug 3, 2026

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Recorded22 May 2021

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YouTube: https://youtu.be/zw6BFDJ765w Bernardo Kastrup and John Vervaeke become closer and closer, in this theolocution. Sponsors: https://brilliant.org/TOE for 20% off. http://algo.com for supply chain AI. Patreon for conversations on Theories of Everything, Consciousness, Free Will, and God: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal Crypto (anonymous): https://tinyurl.com/cryptoTOE PayPal: https://tinyurl.com/paypalTOE Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/better-left-unsaid-with-curt-jaimungal/id1521758802 Pandora: https://pdora.co/33b9lfP Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e Subreddit r/TheoriesOfEverything: https://reddit.com/r/theoriesofeverything LINKS MENTIONED: John Vervaeke's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/johnvervaeke Bernardo Kastrup's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/bernardokastrup What I've Learned on Cows #1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGG-A80Tl5g What I've Learned on Cows #2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdrhpThqlCo THANK YOU: Jaran, who helped with compiling notes. TIMESTAMPS: 00:00:00 Introduction 00:02:32 Summary of Round 1 00:10:29 Best counter to John's and Bernardo's position 00:28:42 Vedanta, Brahma, and Lucid Dreaming 00:40:45 Local vs global consciousness, and meta-consciousness 00:43:40 Psychedelics and experiencing "mind at large" 00:46:10 Whitehead and prehension 00:51:40 John and Bernardo have moved closer (philosophically) to one another 00:55:39 On Karl Friston's "inference" 00:52:30 How to improve as an interviewer 00:57:46 Transjectivity, and rejecting both the blank slate and romanticism 01:02:42 Bernardo started out as an "objectivist" 01:08:15 Mind Uploading is nonsense 01:12:58 Joscha Bach knows nothing about consciousness 01:24:12 There's no "simulation" of consciousness. Who's the illusion occurring to? 01:29:56 Growth doesn't stop when you're 20. We need more than the propositional. 01:36:03 "Idolatry of the nerds" and how "thinking" is just one function of the psyche. 01:39:25 Respecting the elderly 01:41:52 Having mode vs. the Being mode 01:48:05 Love is a kind of knowing. On "agape" 01:58:30 Love is a part of nature, but not the only part. 02:05:54 How to integrate the Shadow 02:10:57 The processes that make us adaptive, make us self deceptive. 02:13:18 Internal family systems therapy 02:21:08 Curt's personal confession 02:28:12 We think we must "win" but we must surrender. Surrender to what you are. 02:34:40 Trying not to try 02:40:05 Personal stories of darkness, from John and Bernardo 02:50:50 Self knowledge, self acceptance, and "participating" in this world 02:54:34 Bernardo and John are the opposite of how they seem. John is more "woo" and Bernardo is anti-"woo" 02:58:37 Bernardo's shadow 03:01:35 We need to reintegrate humor in spirituality 03:05:28 How to build the modern religion? 03:33:44 Where you can find more about John and Bernardo 03:39:36 BONUS [MrChocolateCookie] The paradox of trying not to try 03:44:07 BONUS [Queerdo] Veganism and spiritual bypassing 03:57:03 BONUS [David] What did you enjoy most about this conversation? 03:59:33 BONUS John takes Curt through a breathing exercise 04:01:28 BONUS The theolocution process is vehement but filled with love * * * Just wrapped (April 2021) a documentary called Better Left Unsaid http://betterleftunsaidfilm.com on the topic of "when does the left go too far?" Visit that site if you'd like to watch it. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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“What did the council decide on item 42?” — answered with the speaker and the moment.