Michael Levin and Anna Ciaunica: Consciousness Beyond the Brain
episodePreviously titled “Breakthrough Biology Research: Consciousness Beyond the Brain | Michael Levin & Anna Ciaunica” — renamed by the publisher on Aug 3, 2026
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What are the biggest myths in biology and neuroscience that shape our view of consciousness?
If you don't change, you will die. If you do change, you're no longer yourself. What all of this is about, it's not really philosophy, it's empirical claims about which set of tools is going to apply. You are in no way tied to the story that was told by your past self.
We need to figure out how basically we are linked to other individuals to understand the self.
What you're really talking about is ways to relate to that system and gain optimal interaction that enriches both sides.
Biology, neuroscience, and philosophy often seem to walk separate paths, but two radical thinkers are challenging our most basal assumptions about consciousness, memory, and the self. Michael Levin, a pioneer in developmental biology, has discovered that intelligence isn't limited to brains, rather, it extends all the way down to single cells and even bacterial colonies. Alongside him is cognitive scientist and philosopher Anna Chaunica, who up and The mainstream view of consciousness and selfhood. My name is Kurt Dimungle, and this was part of my three-day tour at Harvard, Tufts, and MIT, where I recorded five podcasts, including this theolocution with Michael Levin, distinguished professor at Tufts University, and Anna Chaunica, who's currently based at the Center for Philosophy of Science at the University of Lisbon, Portugal, and at the Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience, University College London.
The other recordings are with Jacob Barndes, which is over seven hours. Long on quantum theory and Manolas Kellis of MIT. There's also Professor William Hahn, a computer scientist, and that was filmed live at the MIT Media Lab. Subscribe to get notified. Levin and Chaunika's groundbreaking theolocution raises provocative questions that challenge the foundations of neuroscience and philosophy, such as: what is the self? Can you be yourself without others? Is your memory yours to control? And what if thoughts have minds of? What's the largest myth in your respective fields that you have to dispel even to your colleagues?
Uh woof boy, uh there's a there's a lot. Um w let's see. Uh one of them is that uh Neurons and the things that neurons do are an extremely unique aspect of the brain. So um it is often assumed that uh d different kinds of intelligence are necessarily uh limited to brains. And so that's that's something that we talk about a lot about uh where uh neurons actually and and the and the properties of neural networks, where those things actually came from, both evolutionarily and developmentally. And that this is uh these kind of capacities that exist, you know, far far outside of uh of of brainy organisms. That that that's a huge one.
What sort of neural capacities are you referring to that are present in non neural networks?
Well, for example, I mean the the most obvious thing is that the actual mechanisms, so so the ion channels, the uh electrical synapses known as gap junctions, the neurotransmitters, uh all of those things working in a network to integrate information across space and time, those things are evolutionarily absolutely ancient. They predate multicellularity. So even bacterial biofilms to have all of the components. And then there's the actual function. So the ability to learn from experience to navigate some kind of problem space, not necessarily move around in 3D space, but navigate other problem spaces like physiological space, uh metabolic space, uh, gene expression space, anatomical space. All of these things long predate uh the invention of nerve and muscle and and and running around the 3D world.
So all of these capacities are very widespread.
So Anna, we were talking off air about how you think differently than your colleagues, so please.
Yeah, so I think in my case the biggest myth because I work on the self and I think uh people want to want to understand the self, they start with self, but I think it's wrong. I think we should start with the other. you know, from the very beginning. Um because we take an adult centric perspective and kind of like The individual self is already there, so fully fledged a bit, like the Athena coming from Zoo's head.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What are the biggest myths in biology and neuroscience that shape our view of consciousness?
0:00–7:18
2
How does Anna explain the emergence of the self from “bunches of cells”?
7:18–17:27
3
Why do the guests criticize adult‑centric perspectives on the self?
17:27–28:28
4
What evidence supports continuity from single cells to human minds?
28:28–38:45
5
How do memory, metaphors, and shifting perspectives reshape our understanding of the self?
38:45–49:02
6
In what ways can interdisciplinary collaboration bridge disciplinary silos in consciousness research?
49:02–1:10:21
7
How do goal‑directed systems and developmental processes explain depression and self‑regulation?
1:10:21–1:24:00
8
What insights do pregnancy, immune systems, and “sharing a self” provide about embodied consciousness?
1:24:00–1:26:40
Speakers
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