Barry Loewer and Eddy Chen: Do the Laws of Physics Actually Exist?
episodePreviously titled “The God Crutch: Do The Laws of Physics Exist?” — renamed by the publisher on Aug 3, 2026
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What are the basic questions about whether laws of physics really exist?
We have to acknowledge that we don't fully access the physical reality.
These are metaphors that have gone crazy. This seems like a very historical debate. Nature cannot violate the laws of God.
Why not? The laws of physics as something that constrains or even causes the world around us is as fundamental a concept as anything. That's what I investigate on this channel. However, do laws like this even exist in this manner? Do what we call the quote laws of physics actually compel reality? Or do they describe patterns that we observe? Professor Barry Lauer of Rutgers University champions the Humean view that. Laws are sophisticated summaries, not these primitive governing forces. Professor Eddie Chen of UC San Diego defends the opposing position through minimal primitivism. That is, that laws are fundamental metaphysical facts that genuinely constrain physical possibilities. A special thank you to Barry as he had just come off of a 12-hour flight.
You'll notice the playful camaraderie between these two, and that's because Barry, along with Dave, David Albert were Eddie Chen's PhD supervisors. Stick around until the end as we get to questions of free will and ultimately whether the mathematical structures physicists discover reflect mind-independent features of nature or are projections of human pattern-seeking onto brute facts. To me, the stakes extend beyond academic philosophy. It's about how we understand the laws that shape our conception of science. experience causation and you yes you your place in the universe. I'd like to talk about a phrase that we use often, and it's so often that it's becomes second nature to us all. What is it that we mean when we say the laws of physics?
Laws. So this channel's called Theories of Everything. We explore various unification attempts and laws of physics, but We don't talk about, well, what is a law and what is its role in ontology and causation. So I know you all have different views on this. Various technical jargon will come out, like humanism and primitivism and so on, get mentaculus if if we get to that as well, best systems, etc. Those will all be defined. But for now, as an introduction for the audience, you have different stances on the place of the wave function. Regarding ontology andor its place in the laws of physics. So let's tease those out and let's start with Eddie, please. How do you see it? And then we'll hear from Barry.
So for me, laws of nature are fundamental facts. They discover in the universe. They are not part of something else. They are not um, you know, reduced to uh what goes on in the universe. So laws of nature in some sense are and laws of physics are something like laws of mathematics and lots of logic. They just be and govern. They constrain, they explain. And uh laws of physics have less robustness than laws of mathematics and laws of logic, but they're still um part of the fundamental going-zone of the universe. And in that sense they are um primitive facts. They are facts that exist in the world, they don't depend on anything else. And uh one crucial element of this um uh governing business is that laws constrain what's physically possible.
So there is the actual world, the universe we live in. The universe in which, you know, uh the big ban happens and here's us and there's the uh maybe big crunch, and there's all that goes on in the universe, and laws of nature constrain the possibilities for this universe. So what could have been have what could have been the case? The kind of factuals, the possibilities and necessities. So um lost governs the universe by um allowing certain possibilities to unfold and certain possibilities to um to not be the actual world. And actual world is one element of the many possibilities allowed by the laws of nature.
Okay. Barry, why don't you spell out your view on what laws are?
Okay. Well first thing I wanna say is that it meant much of what Eddie said I can agree with, though at least those words. But I think that would mean a little bit different things by many of those words.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What are the basic questions about whether laws of physics really exist?
0:00–7:01
2
How do Barry and Eddie differ on the nature of laws as primitive facts versus summaries?
7:01–15:18
3
What historical perspectives (Descartes, Newton, etc.) are offered on the development of physical laws?
15:18–34:19
4
How is the concept of a “super‑law” or constraint explained and why does it matter for explanation?
34:19–1:04:24
5
What do Barry and Eddy mean when they say “reality can be described in many different ways”?
1:04:24–1:15:57
6
How do the speakers use the notion of possible worlds to argue about the existence of laws?
1:15:57–1:29:02
7
Why do Barry and Eddy disagree about whether laws constrain the world or merely satisfy it?
1:29:02–1:41:34
8
What do the participants think about the practical usefulness of philosophical disputes and teaching philosophy?
1:41:34–2:09:17
Speakers
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Adrian Owen: Awake. Aware. Unable to Move.
Peter Godfrey-Smith: This Scientist Found Earth’s “Alien” Minds