Jonathan Pageau: Why We Were Wrong About the Purpose of Religion
episodePreviously titled “We Were Wrong About Religion | Jonathan Pageau” — renamed by the publisher on Aug 3, 2026
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What is the purpose and meaning behind the name “The Symbolic World”?
It's fantastic to speak with you again. I think we only met up in person twice, is that correct? Once I went to the house.
Before uh my house was flooded. And so that's what's crazy 'cause I saw the video and I'm like, wow, that was before my ho I now I live in the same house, completely different, uh, because we had to rebuild it. But then we saw each other at Arc last year.
Well, speaking about arcs and floods, huh? Okay, yeah, arcs and floods.
There you go.
Let's get to your channel's name. It's called The Symbolic World. I want to know you have surely toyed with other titles in your mind. What was a contender and why did this one win out?
Well There were two reasons. Really was it's this understanding the the title in both ways that you can understand it. One's one is, you know, we're gonna talk about symbolism, you know, and so it it's trying to help people see differently, see see through the eyes of symbolism. But also because when I talk about symbolism, I'm not talking about metaphor in the way that a lot of people tend to think about it or just maybe psychic projections, even the way that Jung talked about it. But I'm talking o about structural questions. So symbolic world also means that I'm implying that the world lays itself out through meaning and without meaning you can't avoid it. So it's kind of in those both. I thought that the title had a
had a good way of exploring both of those aspects, right? So symbolism, but also the fact that the world is is symbolic.
Now, do you say the world is symbolic or reality is symbolic? What would be the difference between those two?
You could say I like the world in the sense of cosmos. I the idea of cosmos, the ancient idea of cosmos is something like the ordered world, the idea that the world lays itself out as a kind of uh as a balanced order that has harmonies in it. And that's the way that I that I understand it. That the the world that we
How does Jonathan explain the difference between symbolism and ordinary metaphor?
live in has these harmonies as part of it. And so you could say it you could say it either way. In this way I like it because it's more embodied to say world.
How do you see the world differently than most people?
Well, I don't yeah, I don't know. It depends on who which most people. Like for sure in terms of the the more signed not signed Tis, but let's say um People who view the world, you know, through scientism, maybe would be the difference is Or at least they
believe they view the world through Or
believe they do. Yeah, exactly. Or or they think they they see it that way. Um You know, I think that the The ver the fact of attention, and this is something I'm not the only one talking about this. Obviously, I come at it more through a philosophical and religious uh background. But the idea is that because of the necessity of the structure of attention, we cannot avoid hierarchies of meaning in the world. You know, through our we cannot step outside of our own perception mechanism and perceive the world outside of the world of care, the the world that we care about. Uh but I don't see that as a kind of illusion. I'm not saying, well therefore we can't see the world, therefore, you know we're We're we're perceived the world through illusion.
I think no. You know, the reason why also the world formed us in that way, the reason why we're formed this way to engage into the world, means that it is the most appropriate manner to deal with the world, anyways. And you can't get out of it. So you it you can argue yourself around that, but it's like, why not then plunge into the world of the structures that we perceive through attention and care and see them as the best mechanism to understand reality. And so you know, so therefore it it creates a kind of vertical causality which uh which m reductionist types struggle with, that that there is a kind of causality of meaning that is part of the world and not just uh mechanical causes and you know things bumping into each other and you know chemicals mixing or you know that type of causality.
Uh so that's what that's what interests me the most and I try to join that vision.
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Chapters
8 chapters
1
What is the purpose and meaning behind the name “The Symbolic World”?
0:00–1:48
2
How does Jonathan explain the difference between symbolism and ordinary metaphor?
1:48–8:42
3
What is vertical causation and how does it differ from horizontal (mechanical) causation?
8:42–15:03
4
How do hierarchy, unity‑multiplicity, and forgiveness relate to the Christian worldview?
15:03–1:41:54
5
What is synergy and how does it relate to theosis?
1:41:54–2:04:55
6
How does top‑down (revelation) versus bottom‑up causality shape reality?
2:04:55–2:33:35
7
Why is dogma considered a protective boundary in Orthodox Christianity?
2:33:35–2:58:24
8
What is the difference between literal and metaphorical language and why does it matter?
2:58:24–3:15:45
Speakers
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