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This Podcast Will Kill You

Special Episode: Dr. Olivia Weisser & The Dreaded Pox

12 May 2026

Transcription

Chapter 1: What were the most feared diseases in early modern London?

1.516 - 16.594 Michelle McPhee

I'm Michelle McPhee, and I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on. A Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman.

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17.155 - 36.544 Unknown

Multi-million dollar house, Ferraris and Lamborghinis, private jets. A billion dollar fraud. But how long can this alliance last? Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me? Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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36.564 - 52.498 Unknown

Your 20s can be so exciting, but they can also be really overwhelming, confusing, and honestly, just kind of lonely. May is Mental Health Awareness Month, and the psychology of your 20s is breaking down the science behind the biggest roadblocks we face.

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Chapter 2: How was syphilis perceived in society during this time?

52.478 - 67.02 Michelle McPhee

I was six years into my career, the 80-hour weeks and just the first one in, the last one out, and I ended up burning out. There was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to be out of that phase, out of my skin, and I just really regret not living in the present more.

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67.22 - 79.178 Unknown

You don't need to have everything figured out right now. You just need to understand yourself a little bit better. Listen to The Psychology of Your 20s on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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79.158 - 94.942 Dani Shapiro

Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Dani Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets.

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94.962 - 96.824 Unknown

He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move.

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Chapter 3: What sources did Dr. Weiser use to research syphilis?

97.265 - 129.853 Unknown

And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ¶¶

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152.885 - 190.553 Erin Welsh

Hi, I'm Erin Welsh, and this is This Podcast Will Kill You. Welcome to the TPWKY Book Club, a series where I invite authors of popular science and medicine books to the show to chat with me about their latest work. This podcast will kill you dot com.

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190.533 - 217.114 Erin Welsh

There, in addition to finding all sorts of goodies, from transcripts to sources, you'll find a link to our bookshop.org affiliate page under the Extras tab. On Bookshop, you'll see a bunch of TPWKY-related book lists, including one for this book club, as well as the Kids Book Club, put together by Erin Updike and posted on our socials. So if you're not following us there already, you should be.

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Chapter 4: How did people in London seek cures for syphilis?

217.094 - 236.301 Erin Welsh

As always, we love hearing from you all about these book club episodes and about our other episodes, your thoughts, your suggestions. We love it all. The best way to get in touch is through the contact us form on our website or through the submit your firsthand account form, which you can also find on our website.

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236.281 - 257.952 Erin Welsh

Two last things before moving on to the book of the week, and that is to please rate, review, and subscribe. It truly helps us out. And second, you can now find full video versions of most of our regular season episodes on YouTube. Make sure you're subscribed to the Exactly Right Media YouTube channel so you never miss a new episode drop.

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258.32 - 285.554 Erin Welsh

Londoners in the 17th and 18th centuries were no strangers to infectious disease. Plague, tuberculosis, typhus, measles, and smallpox all reared their pestilential heads at some point or another. But alongside these well-known and highly broadcast afflictions lurked another disease, so feared and so stigmatized that it was sometimes known as the secret disease.

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Chapter 5: What role did gender play in the stigma of syphilis?

285.614 - 311.934 Erin Welsh

We know it today as syphilis. Syphilis, or the pox as it was also called, was among the most feared diagnoses in early modern London. not just because there were no effective cures and it could lead to painful sores or even death. If your pox infection became public knowledge, you would likely face deep stigma and shame. You may even be ostracized from your friends and family.

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312.415 - 336.673 Erin Welsh

With so much at stake, it's no wonder people went to great lengths to manage or conceal their condition. In The Dreaded Pox, Sex and Disease in Early Modern London, author Dr. Olivia Weiser, associate professor of history at the University of Massachusetts, Boston, peels back the curtain on the most intimate facets of Londoners' lives centuries ago.

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336.653 - 360.084 Erin Welsh

Drawing from a wide variety of sources, from court records to recipe books, pox cure advertisements to personal diaries, Dr. Weiser transports readers back in time to the dirty streets of London. Where might an impoverished maid seek help for her infection? How might a gentleman choose between the many ready-made concoctions in the city's alleys?

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Chapter 6: How did syphilis affect social standing and relationships?

360.765 - 376.647 Erin Welsh

Who were behind these lauded tinctures and ointments that provided nothing more than hope? The dreaded pox is a fascinating glimpse into the daily lives of early modern Londoners as they navigated a world where sex and shame were so deeply entangled.

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377.348 - 401.603 Erin Welsh

While today we have more scientific knowledge and the ability to treat and cure many sexually transmitted infections, that world is still familiar to us in many ways, which leads us to ask how far we have actually come and how much further we still need to go. I had such a great time chatting with Dr. Weiser, and I'm so excited to share our conversation with you all.

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402.164 - 405.129 Erin Welsh

So let's just take a quick break and get right into it.

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429.854 - 432.137 Erin Welsh

Dr. Weiser, thank you so much for joining me today.

432.178 - 433.399 Michelle McPhee

Thanks for having me.

434.181 - 441.972 Erin Welsh

I cannot wait to dive into the world of venereal disease in the London of past centuries with you. It's going to be a great time.

Chapter 7: What parallels exist between historical and modern views of STIs?

442.533 - 448.302 Erin Welsh

And I'm curious, though, could you tell me what drew you to this area and this era of scholarship?

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449.024 - 474.677 Michelle McPhee

A lot of people know that there was a ton of venereal disease in this time period. So this was a rampant disease. And we know a lot about the disease because just so many people seem to be affected by it. There are some historians who predict that if you were a grown-up living in London in the 1700s, you would have up to a 20% chance of getting infected, which is an astounding number. Yeah.

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474.657 - 486.862 Michelle McPhee

I don't know whether that's true. I trust them, but it's just appalling how prevalent this disease was. So we know a lot about the disease. We know a lot less about what it was like to live with it.

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Chapter 8: How does Dr. Weiser's research shed light on contemporary issues?

486.922 - 506.474 Michelle McPhee

So that was kind of the historical problem that I faced. What was it like to endure this disease? What was it like just for a normal person living in the city? And so the answer to kind of do that work, I tried to look in non-medical places. So I tried to look outside hospitals, outside.

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506.574 - 521.573 Michelle McPhee

I did look in consultation rooms, but I tried to look in everyday sites in the city to try to recover just lived experiences with this disease. And what I ended up writing was a book that's as much about the history of a city as it is about the history of a disease.

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521.958 - 545.974 Erin Welsh

Which is what I love so much about it. You really transport readers to this era before germ theory, where London is growing at such a rapid pace and sex is changing. All of these different components are changing, but also at the same time, we have these sentiments of shame and secrecy that surround not only sex, but then of course anything that's tied to sex, including this disease.

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545.954 - 557.972 Erin Welsh

And we've been talking about this disease. What is pox? What could pox be used to describe or label in terms of our modern classifications of disease?

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558.307 - 580.947 Michelle McPhee

It's a great question and one that I get a lot. And my easy answer, if it's really helpful to have some sort of modern disease equivalent in your head thinking about this topic, my easy answer is syphilis. It's most likely that's the disease we're talking about. The more kind of historically accurate answer is it could be any number of STIs. What we would call STIs.

580.987 - 598.961 Michelle McPhee

So, you know, you think chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis. It could be any of those. And they used this term venereal disease as this umbrella category that was expansive. So all of these, what we now differentiate as different STIs were kind of all STIs. encompassed within that one term.

599.001 - 615.685 Michelle McPhee

They, in the past, pre-derm theory, like you mentioned, they didn't differentiate these categories the way we do. But it can be helpful to kind of have that in your mind to just think about like, what was happening to these people's bodies? You know, like what were they, what were their symptoms? What were they enduring?

616.205 - 634.635 Erin Welsh

You talked about how pox was, or venereal disease, was so common in this era. I mean, like 20% possible lifetime risk, which is mind-blowing, again. Why was it so high? Like, how was sex changing in London during the 17th and 18th centuries?

635.155 - 653.401 Michelle McPhee

A lot of historians of sexuality have argued that sex was changing a lot, that people have used the word revolution, like a sexual revolution in this time period. And there is a lot of evidence that sex was changing, that people were just having more sex outside of marriage. There was many, there's much more evidence of men having sex with other men.

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