Chapter 1: What is the main topic discussed in this episode?
I got in the water in the very early morning before the sun had risen and the water was pitch black. I started swimming and I felt the water hollowing out around me and felt like something really big was swimming below.
I'm Phoebe Judge and this is Love, a show about the surprising things that love can make us do. More than 100 episodes available now on This Is Love.
This week on Today Explained Saturday, I sit down with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, a billionaire, one of the most vocal Democratic governors in the country right now, and some of the Trump administration clearly has on its mind.
We talked about his fight against ICE operations in his state, what he'll do if Trump actually invokes the Insurrection Act and deploys troops ahead of the midterm elections, and where Democrats go from here. Because let's be real, the party is still searching for answers. And yes, I asked him the obvious question, too. Are you going to run for president? You'll want to hear what he has to say.
So let's dig into it. Governor Pritzker, thank you for joining us. Great to be with you, Ashton. I want to dig into everything from kind of the way Illinois has led on pushing back against the Trump administration, kind of future of Democrats. But I also wanted to say I was thinking about you recently because I'm learning how to play blackjack and poker and some stuff.
And I was reading about just quite how good you are. I saw that you reported more than 1.4 in Vegas, 1.4 million in winnings from blackjack in Vegas. I wanted to know if this like a normal week for you.
How do you make that happen? No, very lucky is the answer. And, you know, they're not in business to, you know, to give you money. So if you if you can win anything and walk away, you've done well.
It was good to hear. You know, we want to talk about how you positioned Illinois as a ground zero for kind of pushing back against Trump's immigration enforcement. You signed a law limiting ICE in Illinois. You created the Accountability Commission. You have sued the federal government.
I wanted to know, like, if you could describe what you would think the playbook that Illinois has laid out for what to do if Trump comes to town, how would you describe what that is?
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Chapter 2: What strategies does JB Pritzker use to combat the Trump administration?
And what is it? It starts with making sure people know what their rights are. When ICE agents are banging on your door, do you have to open the door? What is it that they're allowed to do and not allowed to do? And then the second thing, and this is what I told everybody very early on, pull out your iPhone, pull out your Android phone, video everything.
And I'm talking about not just the people who are being pursued, but people in the neighborhoods who want to protect their neighbors. Yeah. And they did that. And we were able to use that evidence before we even created the Accountability Commission. That evidence came in handy when the ICE and CBP agents were taken to court here. And we won.
Yeah, I mean, I wanted to dig into this because, you know, Trump gave you an ultimatum saying to activate the National Guard or they federalize your troops. You call that an authoritarian march. But at the end of the day, 300 guardsmen still came to Chicago. Trump, there were hundreds of arrests there. You know, Trump got the show he wanted to.
What do you think was the tangible impact of that playbook you're laying out? What do you think you all succeeded in resisting?
Well, he federalized our National Guard but was not allowed to deploy them in our streets. They were never deployed in the city of Chicago. They had to stay on a federal base until it was determined by the court that indeed, including the Supreme Court, that indeed he doesn't have the ability to send his – you know, federalized National Guard or my National Guard into our streets.
I wonder if the implication here is somewhat that blue states have been too timid in pushing back against Trump. It seems like implied in what you're laying out is a kind of call to action for other democratic states.
Is that what you're saying? Well, it's certainly true that we've got to stand up and push back. And I'm talking about peaceful protests and encouraging people to do as I've described to video everything to stand up. And by the way, I know that, you know, protesters hold up signs and they say, you know, maybe the law enforcement agents feel like, oh, it's, you know, terrible things they're saying.
But that is what protest is about, right? I mean, people showing up and making their voices heard. And it's very important for us to protect that right.
Yeah, but when you see some scenes in Minneapolis, I mean, I know you've encouraged what you're describing as peaceful protests, accountability for officers. Trump administration has argued that that type of organized resistance has escalated tensions.
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Chapter 3: How has Illinois positioned itself against Trump's immigration policies?
What Donald Trump is doing with it, yeah, what he's doing with it should absolutely be abolished. And... It's got to be replaced. It's just got to be wiped away and replaced. Donald Trump has turned them into a secret police. And I do not believe that we want secret police on the streets of our cities and of our country.
So when you say stop the funding, stop the occupations, stop the killing, what you're saying is that that amounts to a call to defund and replace ICE.
That's what I'm saying. I think what they're doing in the Senate right now, holding up DHS funding precisely to get a lot of rules and regulations around what's happening because people are getting shot in the streets by ICE and CBP, is the right thing to do.
You know, one thing that the Trump White House says, and I've even heard you say, is that they want to focus on folks who have been convicted of violent crimes. Absolutely. Everyone seems to agree, from public to Democrats to Republicans, that folks who are undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of violent crimes should be deported. Why isn't that happening?
If there's a universal agreement on that front, why isn't it happening?
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Chapter 4: What is the significance of the playbook Illinois has developed?
That's what I want to know. Why is it that Donald Trump and ICE and CBP are not doing what they said they were going to do, right? They said they were going after the worst of the worst. If you know someone has committed a violent crime, Let's go get them. I mean, we've been doing that, by the way, for much longer than Donald Trump was ever president in the state of Illinois.
If someone has committed a crime, we pursue them. We arrest them. We convict them. Or, you know, they go to trial. If they get convicted, they get put in prison. I mean, we've been doing that. And we always ask for help. I want to be clear. always ask for help from federal law enforcement agencies, FBI, DEA, ATF. We want to get the guns and the drugs and the gangs off of our streets.
And we usually have worked very closely with the federal government to get that done.
Hi, everyone. This week on On with Kara Swisher, I'm joined by the iconic actor and activist Jane Fonda. You've heard of her. Jane and I talked about her roots as an activist dating back to the 1970s when she was protesting the Vietnam War to her ongoing fight for climate, free speech, and ultimately our democracy. Here's a taste of what she had to say. Hope is very different than optimism.
You know, optimism is everything's going to be fine and you don't do anything about it. Hope is a muscle. Hope is when you fight. Hope can be rage-filled, breaking down the door with a battering ram. This is a wonderful conversation. I am privileged to be able to talk to people like this. Jane Fonda is the bomb. She just is. She's always been that way. She remains that way.
She will go down in history as that. You can listen to wherever you get your podcasts and search for us, too, on YouTube. And be sure to follow on with Kara Swisher for more.
I want to also ask about move on from immigration and talk about taxes. You've spent 58 million of your own money trying to pass a graduated income tax in 2020 that voters rejected 55 to 45. I know you're in favor of a wealth tax nationally. This gets some pub because, you know, you yourself are someone who would fall under said wealth tax.
Tell me like how you kind of tell me how you kind of came to supporting an idea of something that would cost you money.
I'm a Democrat. I believe that it is our obligation to have a government that stands up for the middle class, the working class, the most vulnerable. You've got to pay for that somehow. And it shouldn't fall on the backs of the middle class and the working class. Mostly, it should fall on the backs of the people who can afford it. And so I really believe in a graduated income tax.
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Chapter 5: How did Pritzker respond to Trump's ultimatum regarding the National Guard?
Fair.
You've been traveling to New Hampshire. Also, you all are, the state has pushed to move Illinois up in the Democratic primary. I recently read James Carville publicly backed you for president in 2028. I know you're immediately running for a third term for Illinois governor, but I would not be a journalist if I just directly asked you.
Are you someone who we should be thinking about as a 2028 presidential candidate?
I'm running for reelection, like you just said. Now, that is what I'm focused on. I'm obviously flattered that people have talked about me for national office. You know, look, I'm the governor of the fifth largest state in the country, and I'm very proud of that fact.
But I'm focused on the accomplishments that we need to make and that we've made in the state of Illinois and for the people of Illinois.
Days after the 2024 election, you gave a speech where you essentially said Democrats need to fight harder. And at the DNC, your speech was also one that I think was one of the more direct ones. I wanted to know, like, why you think it's important to reflect that sense of urgency.
Why is it for you more important to be kind of standing in direct opposition rather than what seems like some Democrats who are doing more reaching out to their side?
Well, I talk to Republicans all the time. Remember, I've got a legislature with Republicans and Democrats in it. And as I often say, you know, even Republicans have good ideas every once in a while. It's worth listening. There are things, in fact, I just proposed expanding a program that a Republican first proposed in the state of Illinois to make sure that we're funding our pensions properly.
But those speeches, I mean, DNC speech, the one after 2024, it sounded like, you know, Dems fight back. That's really what I'm asking for.
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Chapter 6: What are the implications of Trump's actions on blue states?
Mm-hmm.
I mean, is it just a matter of tone? I mean, did Democrats lose because they were fighting back or things like that? Or was it about an actual difference between where they were and where voters were on things like economy, immigration, cultural issues? Like, you know, like how much is the Democrats issue currently about how they're messaging versus what that message actually is?
Look, I hearken back to January of 2024. January 2024, Joe Biden, still running for reelection, gave a speech at Valley Forge. And he kind of headlined that speech by saying, you know, this is the theme of my campaign. What was it? Democracy. Now, he wasn't wrong. That's something you've got to fight for. Mm-hmm.
The problem is that for an average voter, if you knock on a door, and I've knocked on a lot, and say to people like, you know, what's the most important issue to you? Five out of 100 people will say democracy. The other 95 people mostly will say, I can't pay my bills.
You know, I'm having trouble.
Economy, money, kitchen table, whatever. Yeah, can't get a job that pays the bills, right? And so you've got to address those things in order to win an election. That's not what happened in 2024. But that's not, in the end, how you – that's not the message of the party. The message of the party is we're the party of the middle class and the working class.
We're the party that fights for the most vulnerable. We're the ones who got the Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Civil Rights Act. Look, why didn't anybody talk about raising the minimum wage? The minimum wage nationally is $7.25. You cannot live on that if you have one full-time job earning the minimum wage, two full-time jobs earning that minimum wage.
And every Republican is opposed to raising the minimum wage, and every Democrat is in favor of raising the minimum wage. And by the way, and when I say that, I mean elected officials. The public, including Republicans, 80% of them want to raise the minimum wage. Why didn't we talk about that in 2024? Where was that message?
Yeah. I wanted to ask about the, you know, kind of issue in Gaza specifically. When you visited the Holocaust Museum in June, you were asked whether Israel was committing genocide in Gaza, and you said you thought that was for other people to address. I wanted to ask again, like, do you think that Israel has committed genocide in Gaza, and why is it for other people to address?
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Chapter 7: How does JB Pritzker view the future of Democratic strategies?
I don't want to answer it because I don't want to— make it as if this is okay for people to be asking one another. But I do think people should be talking to their doctors and making those decisions with their doctors.
I hear you. Last question is, like, I just wanted to kind of think of the scope of this conversation. You've made a kind of case about how Illinois has led on pushing back against Donald Trump, you know, your kind of vision for Democrats going ahead. Trump is picking on these blue cities and states partly out of the idea that people, it seems as if,
He's kind of making a bet that they're not, that the brand of them is so bad or that, you know, he can kind of impose. But it seems like what you're saying is you're trying to, like, restore some pride both to Illinois and to a Democratic Party brand that may need some.
I'm very proud of my state. I really am. And this is the state that was the first state to ratify the 13th Amendment, ending slavery. That's who we are. We're the state of Abraham Lincoln, Barack Obama. And I'm very proud of it. I'm just trying to carry forward the tradition that we've established for our state. Thank you, Governor. I really appreciate your time. Thank you. Good to see you.
Good to see you. That was Governor J.B. Pritzker of Illinois. Thanks for listening. This episode was produced by Jesse Ash. It was edited by Today Explained executive producer Miranda Kennedy, fact-checked by Andrea Lopez Cruzado, and mixed by Shannon Mahoney. Special thanks to supervising engineer David Tatasciore and Christina Vallis, our head of video.
Every Saturday, we'll be in your video and audio feeds with an interesting interview in culture or politics. You can also watch the Saturday interviews this week and every week on the Vox YouTube channel. Subscribe at YouTube.com slash Vox.
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